[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[History of Westeros]

This one understands.” Missandei turned as if to go, then paused a moment and said, “It is said that the Yunkai’i have ringed the city all about with scorpions, to loose iron bolts into the sky should Drogon return.”

Ser Barristan had heard that too. “It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.”

Missandei nodded. It was hard to tell if she was reassured.

Ser Grandfather have you forgotten Meraxes, who was slain by in iron bolt in Dorne? Missandei is a clever girl and she will prove to be right. Viserion will get a hit by an iron bolt. Tyrion will help Viserion heal and recover.

This is not quite right.

First, Barristan points out the difficulty in shooting a dragon with a catapult/scorpion out of "the sky", and for all we know, Meraxes was shot on the ground. In fact, the quotes referenced here indicate that was probably what happened.

Second, it was an iron bolt fired from a crossbow that killed Meraxes, not a scorpion or another form of siege weapon. The difference there being that crossbows are way more accurate than scorpions.

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

This is not quite right.

First, Barristan points out the difficulty in shooting a dragon with a catapult/scorpion out of "the sky", and for all we know, Meraxes was shot on the ground. In fact, the quotes referenced here indicate that was probably what happened.

Second, it was an iron bolt fired from a crossbow that killed Meraxes, not a scorpion or another form of siege weapon. The difference there being that crossbows are way more accurate than scorpions.

"Scorpions were cranked upwards to loose iron bolts of the sort that had once felled Meraxes in Dorne."

[Mithras]

This is not quite right.

First, Barristan points out the difficulty in shooting a dragon with a catapult/scorpion out of "the sky", and for all we know, Meraxes was shot on the ground. In fact, the quotes referenced here indicate that was probably what happened.

Second, it was an iron bolt fired from a crossbow that killed Meraxes, not a scorpion or another form of siege weapon. The difference there being that crossbows are way more accurate than scorpions.

Ser Criston Cole was not dismayed. Aegon’s Hand had expected this, counted on it. Drums beat out a command, and archers rushed forward, longbowmen and crossbowmen both, filling the air with arrows and quarrels. Scorpions were cranked upwards to loose iron bolts of the sort that had once felled Meraxes in Dorne.

Several differing tales were told afterward of how and why the dragon fell. Some claimed a crossbowman put an iron bolt through his eye, but this version seems suspiciously similar to the way Meraxes met her end, long ago in Dorne. Another account tells us that a sailor in the crow’s nest of a Myrish galley cast a grapnel as Vermax was swooping through the fleet. One of its prongs found purchase between two scales, and was driven deep by the dragon’s own considerable speed. The sailor had coiled his end of the chain about the mast, and the weight of the ship and the power of Vermax’s wings tore a long jagged gash in the dragon’s belly. The dragon’s shriek of rage was heard as far off as Spicetown, even through the clangor of battle. His flight jerked to a violent end, Vermax went down smoking and screaming, clawing at the water. Survivors said he struggled to rise, only to crash headlong into a burning galley. Wood splintered, the mast came tumbling down, and the dragon, thrashing, became entangled in the rigging. When the ship heeled over and sank, Vermax sank with her.

These two accounts clearly show that Meraxes was done with an iron bolt from scorpion. In Vermax's case, the first account is wrong.

[PrimeRhaegar]

This one understands.” Missandei turned as if to go, then paused a moment and said, “It is said that the Yunkai’i have ringed the city all about with scorpions, to loose iron bolts into the sky should Drogon return.”

Ser Barristan had heard that too. “It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.”

Missandei nodded. It was hard to tell if she was reassured.

Ser Grandfather have you forgotten Meraxes, who was slain by in iron bolt in Dorne? Missandei is a clever girl and she will prove to be right. Viserion will get a hit by an iron bolt. Tyrion will help Viserion heal and recover.

To be fair i think everyone forgot. Hell tyrion may have even been wrong about that knight that tried to kill Rhaenyra's dragon.

[History of Westeros]

I stand corrected!

If Barristan's quote is accurate then Meraxes was felled by a scorpion while she was on the ground. I suspect that means Barristan was wrong.

[Carey Snow]

Ser Criston Cole was not dismayed. Aegon’s Hand had expected this, counted on it. Drums beat out a command, and archers rushed forward, longbowmen and crossbowmen both, filling the air with arrows and quarrels. Scorpions were cranked upwards to loose iron bolts of the sort that had once felled Meraxes in Dorne.

Several differing tales were told afterward of how and why the dragon fell. Some claimed a crossbowman put an iron bolt through his eye, but this version seems suspiciously similar to the way Meraxes met her end, long ago in Dorne. Another account tells us that a sailor in the crow’s nest of a Myrish galley cast a grapnel as Vermax was swooping through the fleet. One of its prongs found purchase between two scales, and was driven deep by the dragon’s own considerable speed. The sailor had coiled his end of the chain about the mast, and the weight of the ship and the power of Vermax’s wings tore a long jagged gash in the dragon’s belly. The dragon’s shriek of rage was heard as far off as Spicetown, even through the clangor of battle. His flight jerked to a violent end, Vermax went down smoking and screaming, clawing at the water. Survivors said he struggled to rise, only to crash headlong into a burning galley. Wood splintered, the mast came tumbling down, and the dragon, thrashing, became entangled in the rigging. When the ship heeled over and sank, Vermax sank with her.

These two accounts clearly show that Meraxes was done with an iron bolt from scorpion. In Vermax's case, the first account is wrong.

Not necessarily. It is possible that Meraxes was felled (knocked from the sky) by an Iron Bolt from a scorpion, and then finished off (killed) by a crossbowman. edit: Ok, just looked up exactly what a scorpion is, and appears to be a type of crossbow, so no difference

Regardless, it is obvious that armies can take down dragons, of that, history leaves little dispute.

[Carey Snow]

We aren't given any incident of a dragon being killed by a catapult. Catapults are too big and heavy to be used effectively against dragons as they are siege weapons designed for large stationary targets like castles. Catapults used for things other than attacking cities or fortifications is unheard of.

Ser Criston Cole was not dismayed. Aegon’s Hand had expected this, counted on it. Drums beat out a command, and archers rushed forward, longbowmen and crossbowmen both, filling the air with arrows and quarrels. Scorpions were cranked upwards to loose iron bolts of the sort that had once felled Meraxes in Dorne.

Several differing tales were told afterward of how and why the dragon fell. Some claimed a crossbowman put an iron bolt through his eye, but this version seems suspiciously similar to the way Meraxes met her end, long ago in Dorne. Another account tells us that a sailor in the crow’s nest of a Myrish galley cast a grapnel as Vermax was swooping through the fleet. One of its prongs found purchase between two scales, and was driven deep by the dragon’s own considerable speed. The sailor had coiled his end of the chain about the mast, and the weight of the ship and the power of Vermax’s wings tore a long jagged gash in the dragon’s belly. The dragon’s shriek of rage was heard as far off as Spicetown, even through the clangor of battle. His flight jerked to a violent end, Vermax went down smoking and screaming, clawing at the water. Survivors said he struggled to rise, only to crash headlong into a burning galley. Wood splintered, the mast came tumbling down, and the dragon, thrashing, became entangled in the rigging. When the ship heeled over and sank, Vermax sank with her.

Ok, not a catapult, but certainly a scorpion (early version of a cross bow).

[Cubarey]

A scorpion (or scorpio) is not a simple crossbow, it is an early, oversized crossbow .

The scorpio was a smaller catapult-type weapon, more of a sniper weapon than a siege engine, operated by one man. The scorpio was basically an early crossbow, a "catapult with bolts", probably first invented by the Greeks, then later adopted and used on a larger scale by the Roman legions. This catapult used a system of torsion springs to propel the bolts.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon)

[History of Westeros]

A scorpion (or scorpio) is not a simple crossbow, it is an early, oversized crossbow .

The scorpio was a smaller catapult-type weapon, more of a sniper weapon than a siege engine, operated by one man. The scorpio was basically an early crossbow, a "catapult with bolts", probably first invented by the Greeks, then later adopted and used on a larger scale by the Roman legions. This catapult used a system of torsion springs to propel the bolts.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon)

Thanks for this.

I pointed out that a scorpion is far less accurate than a crossbow, and one of the reasons for this is practice (there are other reasons as well). It's easy to practice with a crossbow, not so easy to practice with a scorpion. And no living person in Westeros/Essos has any experience trying to hit dragons with such (or any flying creature, most likely). It's a completely new ballgame. That said, if they fire enough shots, decent chance one or three eventually hit. But there might not be an "eventually" if the dragons attack the siege weapons.

There are a lot of strange, un-intuitive things about guns, crossbows, bows and aiming/being good with them. For example, rifle shooting accuracy can be maintained with limited practice, whereas hand gun shooters lose their skills quickly. I don't know how this applies to crossbows and scorpions, if at all, but it's very possible.

[Cubarey]

Also the shot that killed Meraxes was a lucky shot. Dragons can take multiple hits from a crossbow or scorpion with little long term harm. It's getting hit repeatedly in a battle that slows them down which permits a lucky shot to kill them. Now any army that is likely to encounter the Dragons upon Dany landing in Westeros is very unlikely to have scorpions and even less likely to have troops trained to use them. Now if the reconquest takes several years then maybe you can suppose that opposing armies might have scorpions and troops trained to use them but in the initial battles, highly improbable.

[Fire Eater]

I stand corrected!

If Barristan's quote is accurate then Meraxes was felled by a scorpion while she was on the ground. I suspect that means Barristan was wrong.

That could be the case, a dragon is safest when attacking from above, on the ground. It could the be the former as you described, as Barristan could have known how Meraxes died with his highborn education. It is easier to shoot at a grounded dragon than one in flight.

[Ser Lepus]

Also the shot that killed Meraxes was a lucky shot. Dragons can take multiple hits from a crossbow or scorpion with little long term harm. It's getting hit repeatedly in a battle that slows them down which permits a lucky shot to kill them. Now any army that is likely to encounter the Dragons upon Dany landing in Westeros is very unlikely to have scorpions and even less likely to have troops trained to use them. Now if the reconquest takes several years then maybe you can suppose that opposing armies might have scorpions and troops trained to use them but in the initial battles, highly improbable.

Dany's dragons are still small, and their armor is weak. A regular cranequin crossbow's or windlass arbalest's bolt or even a mere longbow arrow through the eye would be enough to kill them. And a scorpion dart could kill them even if it hits them on the body (if a guy could stick a spear through their scales, you can be sure a scorpion projectile could go way deeper and make more damage).

Hitting them would be hard while flying, but if Dany attacks an army and they start to shoot hundreds of bolts at her, there is a fair chance that one will kill either the rider or the dragon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

A scorpion (or scorpio) is not a simple crossbow, it is an early, oversized crossbow .

The scorpio was a smaller catapult-type weapon, more of a sniper weapon than a siege engine, operated by one man. The scorpio was basically an early crossbow, a "catapult with bolts", probably first invented by the Greeks, then later adopted and used on a larger scale by the Roman legions. This catapult used a system of torsion springs to propel the bolts.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon)

Thanks for this.

I pointed out that a scorpion is far less accurate than a crossbow, and one of the reasons for this is practice (there are other reasons as well). It's easy to practice with a crossbow, not so easy to practice with a scorpion. And no living person in Westeros/Essos has any experience trying to hit dragons with such (or any flying creature, most likely). It's a completely new ballgame. That said, if they fire enough shots, decent chance one or three eventually hit. But there might not be an "eventually" if the dragons attack the siege weapons.

There are a lot of strange, un-intuitive things about guns, crossbows, bows and aiming/being good with them. For example, rifle shooting accuracy can be maintained with limited practice, whereas hand gun shooters lose their skills quickly. I don't know how this applies to crossbows and scorpions, if at all, but it's very possible.

It's just like what Bard used (will use) to bring down Smaug in the last Hobbit movie, they showed it in Desolation of Smaug.

[Cubarey]

"Hitting them would be hard while flying, but if Dany attacks an army and they start to shoot hundreds of bolts at her, there is a fair chance that one will kill either the rider or the dragon."

Yes, if they have years to build the scorpions and train the troops on there use. But that is highly unlikely to happen, more likely, Danys, the unsullied and her allies land and within a matter of days they meet a conventional army that does not have scorpions nor know how to use them. They get fried or run away. After a hundred and fifty years I think the difference between Danys adolescent dragons and grown up ones is going to be missed by the terrified troops facing them.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Just read TPATQ today and read the last 5 pages of this discussion. One thing that was discussed in the last 5 pages was whether or not the Targs ever hatched dragon eggs other than the hatcheries on Dragonstone and I didn't see anyone point out that the queen on Dragonstone in the beginning of the story says that dragons born on Dragonstone are stronger, so obviously dragons have been born elsewhere.

Something I did not see discussed in the last 5 pages is, where in the hell did nettles are her dragon just disappear to? How does a dragon disappear?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Just read TPATQ today and read the last 5 pages of this discussion. One thing that was discussed in the last 5 pages was whether or not the Targs ever hatched dragon eggs other than the hatcheries on Dragonstone and I didn't see anyone point out that the queen on Dragonstone in the beginning of the story says that dragons born on Dragonstone are stronger, so obviously dragons have been born elsewhere.

Something I did not see discussed in the last 5 pages is, where in the hell did nettles are her dragon just disappear to? How does a dragon disappear?

If i remember correctly dragons grow stronger in dragonstone. Not hatched stronger.

I find that consistent with the claim that dragons in captivity (Dragonpit) grow less. It´s not that captivity undermines growth, rather than fire and volcanic-like environment (such as dragonstone, or Valyria) favor their development.

[RumHam]

If i remember correctly dragons grow stronger in dragonstone. Not hatched stronger.

I find that consistent with the claim that dragons in captivity (Dragonpit) grow less. It´s not that captivity undermines growth, rather than fire and volcanic-like environment (such as dragonstone, or Valyria) favor their development.

You remember correctly, though I was under the impression that captivity does limit their growth. I think Barristan and/or Tyrion tells us this in the main series. That doesn't mean that Dragonstone's volcanic nature or lingering Valyrian magic* dosen't give them a growth boost

We have more,” said Princess Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was, who had been a dragonrider longer than all of them. “And ours are larger and stronger, but for Vhagar. Dragons thrive best here on Dragonstone.”

Anyway since the Targaryen kids, in Kings Landing and elsewhere, carry their eggs with them at all times I would imagine they don't have to hatch at Dragonstone.

*http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona

If you look at how the citadel of Dragonstone was built and how in some of its structures the stone was shaped in some fashion with magic... yes, it's safe to say that there's something of Valyrian magic still present.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Just read TPATQ today and read the last 5 pages of this discussion. One thing that was discussed in the last 5 pages was whether or not the Targs ever hatched dragon eggs other than the hatcheries on Dragonstone and I didn't see anyone point out that the queen on Dragonstone in the beginning of the story says that dragons born on Dragonstone are stronger, so obviously dragons have been born elsewhere.

Something I did not see discussed in the last 5 pages is, where in the hell did nettles are her dragon just disappear to? How does a dragon disappear?

A little further back I suggested that Netty gave birth to Daemon's natural daughter after she flew east on Sheepstealer and that daughter wed a Plumm in Essos...

...but nobody believes me.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

You remember correctly, though I was under the impression that captivity does limit their growth. I think Barristan and/or Tyrion tells us this in the main series. That doesn't mean that Dragonstone's volcanic nature or lingering Valyrian magic* dosen't give them a growth boost

Anyway since the Targaryen kids, in Kings Landing and elsewhere, carry their eggs with them at all times I would imagine they don't have to hatch at Dragonstone.

*http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona

“Freedom?” asked Dany, curious. “What do you mean?”

“In King’s Landing, your ancestors raised an immense domed castle for their dragons. The Dragonpit, it is called. It still stands atop the Hill of Rhaenys, though all in ruins now. That was where the royal dragons dwelt in days of yore, and a cavernous dwelling it was, with iron doors so wide that thirty knights could ride through them abreast. Yet even so, it was noted that none of the pit dragons ever reached the size of their ancestors. The maesters say it was because of the walls around them, and the great dome above their heads.”

Maesters seem to compare the size of Dragonstone dragons (free) vs Dragonpit dragons (captive).. Since dragonstone dragons grow larger and stronger their conclusion is that it is captivity that undermines them.. When it is actually the volcanic island that drives the growth boost. Or the Valyrian magic present in dragonstone (Valyrian magic is of course rooted in Fire and Blood. so everything seems to be connected)

ETA, yes the targ kids are carrying their eggs arround. But non of them are very succesful. One has to wonder if they are doing things wrong.

The last two dragons were hatched in dragonstone.

Dany of course hatched three dragons in a non-volcanic place. But that kind of hatching does seem to require some Fire and blood magic.. sacrifices and so on. It does seem special.

[aryagonnakill#2]

A little further back I suggested that Netty gave birth to Daemon's natural daughter after she flew east on Sheepstealer and that daughter wed a Plumm in Essos...

...but nobody believes me.

Ahh, interesting.