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Victarion Chainbreaker

When is 'The World of Ice and Fire' coming out v.2

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On the spoiler issue, I think the two things follow. The world book has chunks of information blocked out (the Summerhall stuff etc) whilst the GRRMarillion wouldn't need to do that (assuming the full story comes out in the last two novels; I assume it will). So the tragedy of Summerhall, more stuff about Robert's Rebellion that would currently be spoilery, maybe stuff on the backstory of the CotF and Others etc that falls into the same category etc could all be covered.



If the GRRMarillion came out now, then all you'd have is the same stuff from the world book but in a bit more detail, but the stuff that GRRM couldn't use because it will spoil the remaining novels would have to remain obscured/missing. Having the 'complete' story of the Targaryen reign would, for me, be a major selling point for having the GRRMarillion as well as the world book.


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IIRC, GRRM has repeated the GRRMarillion thing at least once at a convention appearance. But I'm not trying to disagree with your general point.

Yes, George uses it now. But it was coined by Anne, I believe. In fact, I think she did it while we were in a conference call discussing various details regarding the reigns of Maekar and Aegon V...

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well Amazon sent me an email today that says "Release date: October 28, 2014"



it also says there is a kindle version.


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Quote Hairy Bear

But being obliged to pay for a whole book when I'll only "use" about one tenth of it makes me annoyed at Tor. I feel extorted


Quote Maia

Wasn't there a lot of demand for the 3 Dunk and Egg stories to be made into a collection? Couldn't the whole 80K DotD piece be published as part of such a collection, once exclusivity runs out? Seeing how it is already written?
I mean, it will be years before the 4th D&E story would be available for such a collection, as it is not finished yet and will likely go into another multi-author anthology first when it is.


This. I find it very easy to understand why Princess and the Queen couldn't be published in the World of Ice and Fire. It's too big and the World Book cannot accommodate that with all the other stuff it has to tell.

What I would have preferred is for P&Q to be published in a collection of ASOIAF novellas. As we know, the 4th Dunk & Egg is years away. Why not publish Princess and the Queen in this collection with the 3 Dunk & Egg stories? People would gobble that up.

But it seems they went for a different strategy. The Dangerous Women anthology is going to sell for a large part due to the inclusion of this major new GRRM novella. Everybody knows this, so that includes GRRM and TOR ( a highly cynical publisher that has taken truckloads of criticism the last few years for breaking up books for double profit for instance). On the other hand it seems there is also a collection of the 3 Dunk & Egg novellas coming out next year, Amazon UK already has a listing for it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Knight-Seven-Kingdoms-George-Martin/dp/0007507674/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1385674107&sr=1-1

There is in fact even a Dutch translation for it, so that books certainly seems to be coming out next year.

Someone decided that the story would be better off in Dangerous Women than in the upcoming 2014 Dunk & Egg collection. I have to say that this looks cynical to me. The natural fit would be the Dunk & Egg collection, but of course people are going to be interested in that collection anyway. Which cannot be said for Dangerous Women, so DW needs the new GRRM novella more.

I resent having to buy the whole Dangerous Women anthology, nearly 800 pages of it, when the only thing I really want to read is the 80 page Princess and the Queen. If they put it in the upcoming D&E collection, I would only have appreciated that collection even more.

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"The Princess and the Queen" has nothing to do with the Dunk & Egg series. That's why it's not going to be included there. I mean, it'd just be odd to have a collection that's about the two titular characters... and then, oh, here's some random other stuff.

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"The Princess and the Queen" has nothing to do with the Dunk & Egg series. That's why it's not going to be included there. I mean, it'd just be odd to have a collection that's about the two titular characters... and then, oh, here's some random other stuff.

Well, it happened with AfFC. :leaving:

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"The Princess and the Queen" has nothing to do with the Dunk & Egg series. That's why it's not going to be included there. I mean, it'd just be odd to have a collection that's about the two titular characters... and then, oh, here's some random other stuff.

It wouldn't be odd at all. The collection doesn't need to be called "Dunk & Egg novellas".

The link would be that these are all stories from the world of Westeros, that fans would love to read. Specifically the tales are all "History of Westeros" and would actually be a great fit. Call the collection "Tales of the Seven Kingdoms" and none would wonder why Princess and the Queen was included. It's all about how you package and market the product.

It would really increase the value of the Dunk & Egg collection, and offer an extra incentive to buy for those who don't like to just buy a new collection of stories they already have.

But again, I suspect the decision to *not* include it there and instead have it in Dangerous Women, one of GRRM's own edited anthologies, is far more based on that anthology needing a major draw, and GRRM wants to see his own anthologies do well, he's got a known vested interest there.

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GRRM has just as much incentive to see the Dunk & Egg collection do well, surely. But ... yeah, he'd never look at the Dunk & Egg collection as a venue for stuff that was not Dunk & Egg. It defeats the purpose of such a collection.

I mean, that's what the collection is. That's what GRRM and Bantam want it to be: a way for fans to get the Dunk & Egg stories. Three D&E stories and a random other thing just doesn't make sense.

GRRM has other historical material besides the Dance of the Dragons material that could not all fit in the world book. That's why if those are every published, they'll be published together in a collection where the aim is to present a historical narrative of the past of Westeros, rather than a random smattering of stories. That's why I don't think anyone should expect the Dance of the Dragons material to be published any time soon, since the GRRM seems intent on making it part of the GRRMarillion. And for understandable reasons.

Just because some unpublished texts are a license to print money for GRRM doesn't mean he's obliged to actually do it.

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GRRM has just as much incentive to see the Dunk & Egg collection do well, surely. But ... yeah, he'd never look at the Dunk & Egg collection as a venue for stuff that was not Dunk & Egg. It defeats the purpose of such a collection.

I mean, that's what the collection is. That's what GRRM and Bantam want it to be: a way for fans to get the Dunk & Egg stories. Three D&E stories and a random other thing just doesn't make sense.

GRRM has other historical material besides the Dance of the Dragons material that could not all fit in the world book. That's why if those are every published, they'll be published together in a collection where the aim is to present a historical narrative of the past of Westeros, rather than a random smattering of stories. That's why I don't think anyone should expect the Dance of the Dragons material to be published any time soon, since the GRRM seems intent on making it part of the GRRMarillion. And for understandable reasons.

Just because some unpublished texts are a license to print money for GRRM doesn't mean he's obliged to actually do it.

But all this material (including the "Sons of the Dragon" and Aegon's Conquest readings he did recently) was originally written for the World of Ice and Fire, right? So we'll at least get the broad strokes when that comes out. Hopefully he'll continue to read from this material at conventions and we'll get some detailed reports.

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GRRM has just as much incentive to see the Dunk & Egg collection do well, surely. But ... yeah, he'd never look at the Dunk & Egg collection as a venue for stuff that was not Dunk & Egg. It defeats the purpose of such a collection.

I mean, that's what the collection is. That's what GRRM and Bantam want it to be: a way for fans to get the Dunk & Egg stories. Three D&E stories and a random other thing just doesn't make sense.

GRRM has other historical material besides the Dance of the Dragons material that could not all fit in the world book. That's why if those are every published, they'll be published together in a collection where the aim is to present a historical narrative of the past of Westeros, rather than a random smattering of stories. That's why I don't think anyone should expect the Dance of the Dragons material to be published any time soon, since the GRRM seems intent on making it part of the GRRMarillion. And for understandable reasons.

Just because some unpublished texts are a license to print money for GRRM doesn't mean he's obliged to actually do it.

Is it true that The Princess and the Queen will be 30,000 words and the rest of the story which is 80,000 words will be released in his book GRRMarillion of A World of Ice and Fire.

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GRRM has just as much incentive to see the Dunk & Egg collection do well, surely. But ... yeah, he'd never look at the Dunk & Egg collection as a venue for stuff that was not Dunk & Egg. It defeats the purpose of such a collection.

No purpose is being defeated from the POV of the customer. It may be, however, that certain seller oriented purposes are being defeated, but that is a different story.

If the purpose is to provide 3 (or 4) Dunk & Egg stories in one volume, then that purpose is not defeated, as long as the volume contains 3 (or 4) Dunk & Egg stories in that volume. Bonus material does not defeat the purpose of the volume. It merely gives the reader a bonus.

I mean, that's what the collection is. That's what GRRM and Bantam want it to be: a way for fans to get the Dunk & Egg stories.

That purpose is being served. The volume is a way for fans to get the Dunk & Egg stories.

Three D&E stories and a random other thing just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense to the customers.

Maybe 3 Dunk & Egg stories plus 1 non-Dunk ASOIAF story makes slightly less sense than 4 Dunk&Egg stories, which in turn makes slightly less sense than 4 Dunk & Egg stories 1 non-Dunk ASOIAF story.

But, generally speaking, customers prefer getting more stuff to getting less stuff. And anyone interested in Dunk&Egg is likely to also be interested in "The Princess & the Queen".

The competing interests of the seller often places limits on how much the seller is willing to give the customer in exchange for his money. But three short pieces (or even 4 short pieces) per volume would generally be considered a bit stingy.

GRRM has other historical material besides the Dance of the Dragons material that could not all fit in the world book.

Fine. Throw that in too. We, the customers, will not complain. Surely that is obvious.

Just because some unpublished texts are a license to print money for GRRM doesn't mean he's obliged to actually do it.

True. But normally, one would think this would mean that he is not required to give the customer less product for their money, merely because he can get away with it.

Of course, if the texts are not really in publishable form, then perhaps not publishing them is the more honorable option after all.

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I mean, that's what the collection is. That's what GRRM and Bantam want it to be: a way for fans to get the Dunk & Egg stories. Three D&E stories and a random other thing just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense to the customers.

Maybe 3 Dunk & Egg stories plus 1 non-Dunk ASOIAF story makes slightly less sense than 4 Dunk&Egg stories, which in turn makes slightly less sense than 4 Dunk & Egg stories 1 non-Dunk ASOIAF story.

For those dedicated fans who have already invested in the D&E stories via the "Legends", "Warriors" and other collections, this would be another indirect insult. Hey, folks (publishers, resellers, authors, etc)....my request is simple: I want to arrange my GRRM ebooks on a custom eshelf with just GRRM estuff! I want to place all other distracting shit that I choose to buy, as interesting as it may be, elsewhere. Give me a way to buy/acquire each GRRM etale (or threads of historical ASoI&F elore) separately so I can eread, esearch, estudy and eorganize them the way I want.

Screw the old-school anthology all-or-nothings. Who reads these ethings cover-to-cover? Why the hell doesn't the industry give us a la carte buying capability now? [Yeah, I know the weak lecture about "discovering authors" in the literature industry being different than "discovering music" in the music industry....blah, blah, blah...] :bs: Publishers need to put their heads together with resellers and authors and figure out this eproblem. There is an esolution out there....and I bet the economics behind a la carte estory-selling ain't that bad.....it just takes a more progressive and customer-focused mindset. :bang:

Note to GRRM: Help other authors by writing good and honest reviews of their work, not by burying your stuff in massive, unrelated anthologies or reorganizing your stuff under a separate cover....thereby insulting your fans.

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People have already explained, elsewhere, why you can't treat anthologies containing original fiction like albums. It will be a losing proposition for the publisher in most cases.

You're basically calling for an end to anthologies... and that makes no sense, since they are actually fairly popular, if you look at the number of them published each year. Once people stop buying anthologies, perhaps the publishers will reconsider. Until then, the model makes sense.

ETA:

And yes, the texts aren't really final draft material in most cases; some of you all won't care, just eager for the information, I know, but still. The Dance of the Dragons in particular, in its whole form, has one significant continuity issue that GRRM will deal with whenever he feels like completing it, plus it hasn't been copyedited, etc. I mean, TPatQ was edited by Gardner, but the original will have to be polished separately, as will the other texts GRRM wrote for the world book that could not serve as more than sources. For obvious reasons, GRRM would rather spend the time elsewhere, since the GRRMarillion is far-off project and there are more pressing projects to work on.

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People have already explained, elsewhere, why you can't treat anthologies containing original fiction like albums. It will be a losing proposition for the publisher in most cases.

You're basically calling for an end to anthologies... and that makes no sense,

No, I am not. I'm just raising concerns regarding the e-model for anthologies. I'm disappointed in the dismissive tone (surely there is a more productive discussion to be had), so I will just drop it as a concern here. I am a dedicated GRRM fan (since he wrote Sandkings)...I'm just hoping for pro-consumer ways that I can focus on his ASoI&F work without being diluted by distractions.

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On the spoiler issue, I think the two things follow. The world book has chunks of information blocked out (the Summerhall stuff etc) whilst the GRRMarillion wouldn't need to do that (assuming the full story comes out in the last two novels; I assume it will). So the tragedy of Summerhall, more stuff about Robert's Rebellion that would currently be spoilery, maybe stuff on the backstory of the CotF and Others etc that falls into the same category etc could all be covered.

If the GRRMarillion came out now, then all you'd have is the same stuff from the world book but in a bit more detail, but the stuff that GRRM couldn't use because it will spoil the remaining novels would have to remain obscured/missing. Having the 'complete' story of the Targaryen reign would, for me, be a major selling point for having the GRRMarillion as well as the world book.

The need not to "spoil" things like Summerhall does not imply any need for additional material to be presented in the GRRMarillion. It merely implies a plan to have certain material appear later, in future Dunk & Egg stories, or future ASOIAF volumes, which for various artistic reasons ought not be presented in the wrong order.

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Once people stop buying anthologies, perhaps the publishers will reconsider. Until then, the model makes sense.

It's hard for me to stop buying anthologies while my favourite author keeps publishing exclusive tales there. If I want to read Dunk and Egg stories or the Princess and the Queen, I have no other option than to purchase an anthology. Even if I hate it.

The model may make sense, but here's an angry consumer.

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GRRM has just as much incentive to see the Dunk & Egg collection do well, surely.

Well no, as I posted upthread, the more savvy to way to market Princes and the Queen is to put it in the anthology in which it is a bigger draw, and that's Dangerous Women. TheDunk & Egg collection would do well anyway and doesn't really *need* the big draw of a major new History of Westeros story, it would just be a nice and fitting bonus. George and his publisher will have realized this. It does not seem very logical to me to put it in Dangerous Women when you already have a collection coming out soon afterwards with other tales about the history of Westeros.

But ... yeah, he'd never look at the Dunk & Egg collection as a venue for stuff that was not Dunk & Egg. It defeats the purpose of such a collection.

I mean, that's what the collection is. That's what GRRM and Bantam want it to be: a way for fans to get the Dunk & Egg stories. Three D&E stories and a random other thing just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense Ran, and no one in the world would bat an eye if a Tales of the Seven Kingdoms collection came out next year with the 3 D&E stories plus Princess and the Queen. It would be of great interest to the ASOIAF fan, and no one would find that even a bit peculiar I'm sure.

Being forced to buy an 800 page anthology with many totally unrelated stories that most fans aren't interested in, that is something people just don't like. A select number of readers would otherwise have bought this new DW anthology. With a major new GRRM novella, you massively boost the number of people interested in it, a boost that the Dunk & Egg collection doesn't really need. It's unfriendly to the fans, but undeniably clever/cynical marketing.

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Martin was committed to providing a story for Dangerous Women. There's nothing cynical about his providing one when the story he intended to provide was proving difficult.

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I don't see anyone angry at GRRM here, the frustration is directed at the publishers. I don't think anyone is calling him cynical.



But Ran's point re: the difficulty of the story is a good one. He's never written anything like this before... Heck, no one has. Allowing him to fill in the story in different ways through other mediums is a plus for everyone, but I can also understand the frustration at having to purchase a book that is 92% irrelevant as far as expanding the story goes.


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No, Calibandar notes "George and his publisher will have realized this..." So he's blaming GRRM. And ignoring the fact that GRRM owed the publisher a story, and that's the story he could complete in time for their plans.

Perhaps the whim may take him to complete that unfinished 4th Dunk and Egg story... and maybe he'll then put that in the Dunk & Egg collection. Who knows? Though I know he'd rather focus on TWoW and has said he doesn't think he'll have it done for that collection.

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