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Winter's Knight

Wow, I Never Noticed That V.3 Eyes Wide Shut Edition

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"Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

I just realized Cersei was probably lying about this to Tywin. Cersei was the one telling Joff that a king must be bold.

She says this just a few lines later.

"Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I'd allowed it."

Robert ignores him, Robert often told him blah blah blah. She's contradicting herself.

"A strong king acts boldly? Who told him that?"

"Not me, I promise you"

"Most like it was something he heard Robert say"

And when Tywin first questions it Cersei is obviously a bit flustered because Tywin called her out on her bullshit without naming her. Its not until Tyrion backs her up with villifying Robert to Tywin does Cersei say the first line.

And not to mention, Robert mentions something about Cersei whispering in Joff's ears in AGOT.

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“Lord Eddard’s daughters live. One has just been wed. The other…” Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? “…if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced inkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.”



Above foreshadowing Arya marrying Gendry or Hot Pie?


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“Lord Eddard’s daughters live. One has just been wed. The other…” Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? “…if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced inkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.”

Above foreshadowing Arya marrying Gendry or Hot Pie?

Ew Hot Pie.... Arya marrying Gendry would be fitting, a stark girl marrying a baratheon boy just like the original wedding pact

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I don't know if I'm interpreting this correctly, but was Arianne lusting for the Red Viper here?:



“My uncle brought me here, with Tyene and Sarella.” The memory made Arianne smile. “He caught some vipers and showed Tyene the safest way to milk them for their venom. Sarella turned over rocks, brushed sand off the mosaics, and wanted to know everything there was to know about the people who had lived here.”

“And what did you do, princess?” asked Spotted Sylva.

I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow’s peak. The memory made her uneasy.


If she was then :ack:

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“Lord Eddard’s daughters live. One has just been wed. The other…” Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? “…if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced inkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.”

Above foreshadowing Arya marrying Gendry or Hot Pie?

Except that the person Jaime hopes will marry a blacksmith/innkeep is Sansa, not Arya. Arya was the one who had just been wed. Sansa was the one he "prophesied" would marry a burly blacksmith or a fat-faced innkeep.

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I don't know if I'm interpreting this correctly, but was Arianne lusting for the Red Viper here?:

“My uncle brought me here, with Tyene and Sarella.” The memory made Arianne smile. “He caught some vipers and showed Tyene the safest way to milk them for their venom. Sarella turned over rocks, brushed sand off the mosaics, and wanted to know everything there was to know about the people who had lived here.”

“And what did you do, princess?” asked Spotted Sylva.

I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow’s peak. The memory made her uneasy.

If she was then :ack:

Yes. Yes she does,

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I don't know if I'm interpreting this correctly, but was Arianne lusting for the Red Viper here?:

“My uncle brought me here, with Tyene and Sarella.” The memory made Arianne smile. “He caught some vipers and showed Tyene the safest way to milk them for their venom. Sarella turned over rocks, brushed sand off the mosaics, and wanted to know everything there was to know about the people who had lived here.”

“And what did you do, princess?” asked Spotted Sylva.

I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow’s peak. The memory made her uneasy.

If she was then :ack:

Well, Dorne is known for its sexual liberty.

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To answer Ser Onaventea Helms' question from the previous thread (I cannot quote from thread to thread on my phone), about how closely Aerys Targaryen and Steffon Baratheon were related.

Aerys' father Jaehaerys was the brother of Steffons mother Rhaelle. They are cousins.

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To coil:





-Florent girl: most likely undesired due to Robert.


Actually if I am not mistaken Tywin offered Tyrion to the Florent girl Robert bedded. But her father said no, he wouldn't give his daughter to a dwarf. She is now married to her father's household knight.



TyrionBlackfish:





Jonos Bracken has only female children, and therefore if he were to die then the Brackens die out in the male line. The only male heir he COULD have called upon was killed during a Clash of Kings, his nephew as mentioned by Brynden Tully. So the Bracken name stands a good chance of dying out by the end of the series, potentially resolving the Bracken Blackwood conflict


I don't think it works like that. If there are no sons, then the house falls to the daughter. She would keep her House's name and her children would more than likely have her name. It is according to what rank her husband is. If both husband and wife were heirs, they can have oldest son or child take the most powerful House while the younger child or son gets the less powerful one. That child won't keep his father's house name. He will take the mother's name.



I don't understand sometimes why people constantly say this. We have been told constantly how inheritance through female line works as in the wife keeping her name and being a ruling Lady in her own right. And one of her children taken her house's name to become heir. I don't understand why people think extinct in the male line truly means extinct and no one will ever have the House name again. It meant it in our world, but not in this world. It also seems to be very rare that Houses and lands are completely absorbed by another House. We see female descent with the Stokeworths, with the Dornish-Doran has his claim through his mother who was the Princess of Dorne in her own right, Tallhart second son being heir to House Hornwood through the female line. Even Bael the Bard if the story was true, the Stark king derived his claim from his mother.


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To coil:

Actually if I am not mistaken Tywin offered Tyrion to the Florent girl Robert bedded. But her father said no, he wouldn't give his daughter to a dwarf. She is now married to her father's household knight.

TyrionBlackfish:

I don't think it works like that. If there are no sons, then the house falls to the daughter. She would keep her House's name and her children would more than likely have her name. It is according to what rank her husband is. If both husband and wife were heirs, they can have oldest son or child take the most powerful House while the younger child or son gets the less powerful one. That child won't keep his father's house name. He will take the mother's name.

I don't understand sometimes why people constantly say this. We have been told constantly how inheritance through female line works as in the wife keeping her name and being a ruling Lady in her own right. And one of her children taken her house's name to become heir. I don't understand why people think extinct in the male line truly means extinct and no one will ever have the House name again. It meant it in our world, but not in this world. It also seems to be very rare that Houses and lands are completely absorbed by another House. We see female descent with the Stokeworths, with the Dornish-Doran has his claim through his mother who was the Princess of Dorne in her own right, Tallhart second son being heir to House Hornwood through the female line. Even Bael the Bard if the story was true, the Stark king derived his claim from his mother.

Can you provide us with in-book examples in that case? Because none come to mind.

Also, Dornish inheritance law works different from the rest of Westeros. In Dorne, the eldest inherits, no matter if they are male or female. So no examples from Dorne.

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Can you provide us with in-book examples in that case? Because none come to mind.

Also, Dornish inheritance law works different from the rest of Westeros. In Dorne, the eldest inherits, no matter if they are male or female. So no examples from Dorne.

If the story about Bard is true, then the Stark Lord derives his claim from his mother. His last name is Stark.

In Clash of Kings, Bran, Rodrick and Lewyn are discussing who will be heir to House Hornwood. Harys Hornwood has died, but they make a point of saying that he has a sister married to a Tallhart. She has two sons. The eldest son is heir to Torrhen's Square. The younger son can be sent to foster with Lady Hornwood so that he can one day take up the name and lands since there is no one else except Laurence Snow, a bastard who can't inherit unless legitimized.

Some of these don't go right out and say they are the ruling Ladies but you can tell.

Lady Tanda Stokeworth mother of Falyse and Lollys. It is unlikely she is the regent because her daughters or at least the heir Falyse was mentally competent and of age. Since her sibling and mother are dead, Lollys is now the Head of Stokeworth with Bronn as Lord Protector because of her state.

Lady Anya Waynwood. She is a Lord Declarant. She has at least two sons who are of an age to already be a Knight who bear the Hornwood name.

Maege Mormont. Her heir was Dacey and is now Alysane.

There are probably more. Lady Arwyn Oakheart may be one. Her husband has been dead for years. And Arys is considered her youngest son yet she is still the current Head.

Historically, the maid of the Vale from the princess and the queen novella if I am not mistaken. I guess another one is according to if House Webber still exists even moreso if House Osgrey still exists. If it does, then it is likely that Rohanne's heir took her last name. and Eustace Osgrey was the last of his line and if his name still exists, he also had an heir that took his.

Now that I think about it. Maybe people aren't able to pick up on it because there seems to be alot of males compared to females. There don't seem to be a lot of ruling Ladies but it still happens. Most females tend to get married before all their brothers die and then they are the only ones left. Or they grow up knowing they will be heir like Brienne after her last brother died even if she refuses to acknowledge it.

If females weren't able to inherit and their children take their House name, then the overlords will have a lot of lands in their holding. There doesn't seem to be alot of land absorption by other Houses like a noble House in the Reach having property in the Riverlands and vice versa also with the other kingdoms. Just think, what if there was a House Lannister in the North.

If the sons get to keep their father's name but are heir to their mother's House, there should be a lot more Houses with the same names. The only Houses we hear about with the same names are considered cadet branches which means that a brother or male relative of a Lord created a cadet branch.

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Princess and the Queen spoilers





One of Rhaenyra's supporters is the Maid of Vale, an unmarried Arrynwoman ruling in her own right.



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@Winter's Knight


Thanks for creating the third version of this thread, a couple of requests:


1 Could you put in the OP the links for the previous threads?


2 Wtf does eyes wide shut edition means? Am I missing something obvious?



On topic, a couple of things I noticed only recently


1 The assonance between Reynes and Rains, not being an english user.


This makes the whole title of the song "the Rains of Castamere" even more telling and threatening...



2 Starks and Tarbecks/Reynes have a couple of things in common: both rebelled to House Lannister and both paid for it.


Yet (but always keeping in mind that Tarbeck/Reyne are a mention of the past and that the source of their "rebellion" is different from the Stark one) many readers and even characters resent Tywin only for the Red Wedding and eventually Elia Martell.




When Tarbeck Hall came crashing down on Lady Ellyn, that scheming bitch, Tyg claimed he smiled then


...


Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner




Tywin did both. The kicker is that while at the Red Wedding mostly only soldiers and Catelyn/Jinglebell died, at Tarbeck Hall a whole castle went crashing down.


And since we know that sieges do not only involve fighting personnel but civilians thanks to Riverrun or King's Landing...


I'm not trying to demonstrate a point or something, but don't you find it quite ironic that Tarbeck Hall was most likely bloodier and more cruel than the Red Wedding, but since it was a "reasonable act of war" no one blames Tywin like with the Red Wedding?

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@Winter's Knight

Thanks for creating the third version of this thread, a couple of requests:

1 Could you put in the OP the links for the previous threads?

2 Wtf does eyes wide shut edition means? Am I missing something obvious?

On topic, a couple of things I noticed only recently

1 The assonance between Reynes and Rains, not being an english user.

This makes the whole title of the song "the Rains of Castamere" even more telling and threatening...

2 Starks and Tarbecks/Reynes have a couple of things in common: both rebelled to House Lannister and both paid for it.

Yet (but always keeping in mind that Tarbeck/Reyne are a mention of the past and that the source of their "rebellion" is different from the Stark one) many readers and even characters resent Tywin only for the Red Wedding and eventually Elia Martell.

Tywin did both. The kicker is that while at the Red Wedding mostly only soldiers and Catelyn/Jinglebell died, at Tarbeck Hall a whole castle went crashing down.

And since we know that sieges do not only involve fighting personnel but civilians thanks to Riverrun or King's Landing...

I'm not trying to demonstrate a point or something, but don't you find it quite ironic that Tarbeck Hall was most likely bloodier and more cruel than the Red Wedding, but since it was a "reasonable act of war" no one blames Tywin like with the Red Wedding?

I agree, it's quite ironic. People also seem to sometimes forget that amongst the Reyne's and Tarbecks, there were also little children killed, which didn't happen at the Red Wedding.

People fear Tywin because of Castamere/Tarbeck hall, but they hate him because of Elia Martell/Red Wedding.

But against the Reyne's/Tarbecks he at least had a good reason to act the way he did, one could argue, whereas the Reyne's ans Tarbecks did not. Perhaps that why the event doesn't seem to count in the views of some people?

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<snip>

By "Eyes Wide Shut" I was just making a joke about how posters read the books with their eyes closed, thus the need for three editions of this this thread. :P

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