Wow, I Never Noticed That V.3 Eyes Wide Shut Edition

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well I've seen people who believed him to have warged Balerion the black cat and even Bowen Marsh! >_>

Bowen, probably not. The cat though, yes I think so. If he could have warged Ghost to lead Jon to the cache, he could have warged Balerion to lead Arya to Illyrio and Varys.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Yeah, i noticed the references to the lannister colors on my first read. However upon re-reading I noticed something that I had missed. I think the repetition of the black red/ruby motif, which is associated w/ Rhaegar, foreshadows the reveal of Cersei's feelings for Rhaegar, and the distain she felt toward Robert for having killed him. After noticing this I now think Cersei consciously chose the color scheme as a symbolic dig at Robert by garbing his "son" and heir in the colors of his most hated and bitter enemy.

[Dany Girl]

Yeah, i noticed the references to the lannister colors on my first read. However upon re-reading I noticed something that I had missed. I think the repetition of the black red/ruby motif, which is associated w/ Rhaegar, foreshadows the reveal of Cersei's feelings for Rhaegar, and the distain she felt toward Robert for having killed him. After noticing this I now think Cersei consciously chose the color scheme as a symbolic dig at Robert by garbing his "son" and heir in the colors of his most hated and bitter enemy.

I think it's a mix of the 2 and all together a big fuck you to Bobby.

[SpringKing]

Arya and Mycah are going to "ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford" while Sansa and Joff "ranged east along the north bank of the Trident" (downstream). All four meet near the Ruby Ford which somehow is supposed to be on the Green Fork, not on the Trident proper.

The Crossroads Inn is said to be north of the confluence of the Trident yet the map shows the River Road intersecting the Kings Road south of the Trident and the High Road to the vale intersecting Kings Road to the north (ie. there is no 'crossroads' according to the map).

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

the Name of the Inn of the Crossroads and geography surrounding it has changed over the years.

Brienne AFoC:

When Podrick asked the name of the inn where they hoped to spend the night, Septon Meribald seized upon the question eagerly, perhaps to take their minds off the grisly sentinels along the roadside. “The Old Inn, some call it. There has been an inn there for many hundreds of years, though this inn was only raised during the reign of the first Jaehaerys, the king who built the kingsroad. Jaehaerys and his queen slept there during their journeys, it is said. For a time the inn was known as the Two Crowns in their honor, until one innkeep built a bell tower, and changed it to the Bellringer Inn. Later it passed to a crippled knight named Long Jon Heddle, who took up ironworking when he grew too old to fight. He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon.”

“Is the dragon sign still there?” asked Podrick.

“No,” said Septon Meribald. “When the smith’s son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon’s heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust. The innkeep never hung another sign, so men forgot the dragon and took to calling the place the River Inn. In those days, the Trident flowed beneath its back door, and half its rooms were built out over the water. Guests could throw a line out their window and catch trout, it’s said. There was a ferry landing here as well, so travelers could cross to Lord Harroway’s Town and Whitewalls.”

“We left the Trident south of here, and have been riding north and west... not toward the river but away from it.”

“Aye, my lady,” the septon said. “The river moved. Seventy years ago, it was. Or was it eighty? It was when old Masha Heddle’s grandfather kept the place. It was her who told me all this history. A kindly woman, Masha, fond of sourleaf and honey cakes. When she did not have a room for me, she would let me sleep beside the hearth, and she never sent me on my way without some bread and cheese and a few stale cakes.”

“Is she the innkeep now?” asked Podrick.

“No. The lions hanged her. After they moved on, I heard that one of her nephews tried opening the inn again, but the wars had made the roads too dangerous for common folk to travel, so there was little custom. He brought in whores, but even that could not save him. Some lord killed him as well, I hear.”

dunk and egg spoiler:

TMK:

Quote

The sun was low in the west by the time they saw the lake, its waters glimmering red and gold, bright as a sheet of beaten copper. When they glimpsed the turrets of the inn above some willows, Dunk donned his sweaty tunic once again and stopped to splash some water on his face. he washed off the dust of the road as best he could, and ran wet fingers through his thick mop of sun-streaked hair. There was nothing to be done for his size, or the scar that marked his cheek, but he wanted to make himself appear somewhat less the wild robber knight.

The inn was bigger than he'd expected, a great gray sprawl of a place, timbered and turreted, half of it built on pilings out over the water. A road of rough-cut planks had been laid down over the muddy lakeshore to the ferry landing, but neither the ferry nor the ferrymen were in evidence. Across the road stood a stable with a thatched roof. A dry stone wall enclosed the yard, but the gate was open. Within, they found a well and a watering trough. "See to the animals," Dunk told Egg, "but see that they don't drink too much. I'll ask about some food."

He found the innkeep sweeping off the steps. "Are you come for the ferry?" the woman asked him. "You're too late. The sun's going down, and Ned don't like to cross by night unless the moon is full. He'll be back first thing in the morning."

eta: I also completely missed the connection between these two passages the first time i read TMK.

[SpringKing]

the Name of the Inn of the Crossroads and geography surrounding it has changed over the years.

The name of the inn has nada to do with it. Did the geography change in the ~ narrative hour between Arya telling Sansa she was going upstream to the Ruby Ford and Sansa/Joff riding downstream to the Ruby Ford?

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

No im just saying the geography around the inn is quite confusing and having looked at the maps they don't help.

[SpringKing]

Also, the Trident changed course ~70 years before leaving the south wing of the Inn high and dry. When the Inn was on the river there would have been no 'south side' for the Kings Road to come from to form the crossroads. So what altered the route of the Kings Road after the river changed course?

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

I'm not entirely sure what's at issue? Sansa's not well acquainted w/ her surroundings (as evident from the utter lack of interest she displays in the country side when hearing of Arya's adventures), she gets lost (both literally and figuratively) in her own adventures w/ Joffery doing things that are totally out of character (e.g. tracking down shadow cats and getting drunk in some random peoples' house) before finding herself drunk and heading toward the Fords. Presumably at some point in the day between chasing shadow cats and getting drunk she ended heading in a direction other than east down north bank of the trident. here's the passage from the Sansa chapter:

She found Arya on the banks of the Trident, trying to hold Nymeria still while she brushed dried mud from her fur. The direwolf was not enjoying the process. Arya was wearing the same riding leathers she had worn yesterday and the day before.

"I'm not," Arya said, trying to brush a tangle out of Nymeria's matted grey fur. "Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford."...

...And so they left her direwolf and his bodyguard behind them, while they ranged east along the north bank of the Trident with no company save Lion's Tooth.

It was a glorious day, a magical day. The air was warm and heavy with the scent of flowers, and the woods here had a gentle beauty that Sansa had never seen in the north. Prince Joffrey's mount was a blood bay courser, swift as the wind, and he rode it with reckless abandon, so fast that Sansa was hard-pressed to keep up on her mare. It was a day for adventures. They explored the caves by the riverbank, and tracked a shadowcat to its lair, and when they grew hungry, Joffrey found a holdfast by its smoke and told them to fetch food and wine for their prince and his lady. They dined on trout fresh from the river, and Sansa drank more wine than she had ever drunk before. "My father only lets us have one cup, and only at feasts," she confessed to her prince.

"My betrothed can drink as much as she wants," Joffrey said, refilling her cup. They went more slowly after they had eaten. Joffrey sang for her as they rode, his voice high and sweet and pure. Sansa was a little dizzy from the wine. "Shouldn't we be starting back?" she asked.

"Soon," Joffrey said. "The battleground is right up ahead, where the river bends. That was where my father killed Rhaegar Targaryen, you know. He smashed in his chest, crunch, right through the armor." Joffrey swung an imaginary warhammer to show her how it was done. "Then my uncle Jaime killed old Aerys, and my father was king. What's that sound?"

[SpringKing]

What's at issue is that GRRM himself isnt spatially aware of the Crossroads Inn/Ruby Ford locations. I understand Sansa not being a 'reliable witness' but it isnt Sansa describing which direction she and Joff rode, its the narrator (GRRM). Elsewhere, the road west from the Inn is specifically called the River Road. Thus, there must be two fords on the Trident proper, one for the River Rd (which I assume is the Ruby Ford), which must cross the Trident at some point, and one for the Kings Road. These two assumed crossings align with Tyrion's geographic assessment to Cercei:

"Harrenhall is close enough to the fords of the Trident so that Roose Bolton cannot bring the northern foot across to join the Young Wolf's horse."

Due to the poor labeling of Lord Harroway's Town, the book map is lamentably vague on the geography of these fords. The wiki here, as well as other unofficial sources, indicate the Ruby Ford as being on the Green Fork of the Trident. This is likely due to this poorly conceived exchange between Catelyn and Robb:

Catelyn frowned down at the map. "You'd put a river between the two parts of your army."

"And between Jaime [at Riverrun] and Lord Tywin [at the crossroads] he [Robb] said eagerly. The smile came at last. "There is no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown. Not until the Twins, all the way up here..."

1) regardless of which part of the Trident the Ruby Ford crosses, all Tywin has to do to unite with Jaime is move south on the Kings Rd, cross the Trident unopposed, leave a contingent to hold that crossing, then move west. At worst Tywin's route from the crossroads to Riverrun is clearly shorter than Robb's route from the Twins. So much for Robb's grand scheme if the only river between the two Lannister forces is one that Tywin holds the crossing(s).

2) if the Ruby Ford does cross the Green Fork its strategic value is minimal, especially if it crosses the Green Fork north of the junction with the Blue Fork. From a Lannister perspective, its the Trident/Red Fork river line that's important.

3) if the Ruby Ford crosses the Trident to the east of the confluence of the Green & Red Forks, its strategic value is almost as high as that of the Kings Rd crossing of the Trident. Assuming this location for the Ruby Ford makes it a much more likely location for the epic clash between Robert & Rhaegar.

Based on 5 years experience doing military cartography, GRRM is like a blind man trying to describe an elephant w/r/t the geography of the crossroads/Ruby Ford.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Based on 5 years experience doing military cartography, GRRM is like a blind man trying to describe an elephant w/r/t the geography of the crossroads/Ruby Ford.

okay, so you never noticed GRRM lacked formal training as a military cartographer... :dunno:. He has said:

April 17, 2008 SIZE OF WESTEROS

[How big is Westeros? Is it the size of Europe, or even larger?]

I have deliberately tried to be vague about such things, so I don't have obsessive fans with rulers measuring distances on the map and telling me Ned couldn't get from X to Y in the time I say he did.

However, if you really must know, you can figure out the distances for yourself. The Wall is a hundred leagues long. A league is three miles. Go from there.

But if you turn up any mistakes in travel times by using that measure, let it be your secret.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Size_of_Westeros%C2'>

[SpringKing]

I dont consider it obsessive to want to know where key sites like the Ruby Ford and crossroads are located. I do consider it a bit of oblivious literature, in the case of the Ruby Ford, to point the reader in two different directions in the space of a single chapter.

GRRM also said "...So I was working on that book when suddenly the first chapter of A Games of Thrones, not the prologue but the first chapter, came to me. The scene of the dire wolves in the summer snow. I didn't know where it came from or where it needed to go, but from there the book seemed to write itself. From there I knew what the second step was and the third and so one. Eventually, I stopped to draw some maps and work out some background material."

And as persistently vague as GRRM was about chronology, obsessive readers would be hard pressed to pin him down about realistic travel intervals - intervals which wouldnt have been all that hard to make realistic if he'd have cared to.

Here's another cartographic faux pas - Robb orders Jason Mallister to "sail from Seagard, around the Cape of Eagles and up the Neck to Greywater Watch." Puzzle that one out on the map. Greywater Watch, moveable as it may be, is somewhere in the drainage basin of the Green Fork headwaters. Any [uncharted] river leading inland from the coast between Cape of Eagles and the Flint Cliffs is going to be in a different drainage basin. Basic hydrology dictates there is no way to sail inland from that coast to Greywater Watch because there is going to be high, and dry, ground separating the two drainage basins.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Okay, in addition to lacking formal training in cartography GRRM also lacks basic knowledge of hydrology. That's cool. I don't see how these complaints have anything to do w/ this thread. If you want to have a discussion about the precise location of the fords or the inn of the crossroads i would suggest the Small Questions thread. As to the passage in question I think the Sansa PoV (which is from her PoV there is no omniscient narrator) involves more than her and Arya simply riding in different directions before ending up at the Ruby Ford.

[SpringKing]

Okay, in addition to lacking formal training in cartography GRRM also lacks basic knowledge of hydrology. That's cool. I don't see how these complaints have anything to do w/ this thread. If you want to have a discussion about the precise location of the fords or the inn of the crossroads i would suggest the Small Questions thread. As to the passage in question I think the Sansa PoV (which is from her PoV there is no omniscient narrator) involves more than her and Arya simply riding in different directions before ending up at the Ruby Ford.

In a thread chartered [v1] as: "Upon book rereads, family tree research and Wiki scouring, have you ever come across some little bit of minutiae that made you go, "Wow, I never noticed that." It doesn't have to be anything ground-shaking, just anything interesting for its own sake." it certainly is pertinent to point out GRRM's geographic inconsistencies precisely because they have gone unnoticed, as far as I can tell. 'Minutiae' = 'small questions' n'est pas?

As Ive indicated, its not just the Sansa chapter that's inconsistent, though her POV conflicts most egregiously, other references to the crossroads and Ruby Ford do so as well. To the extent that few readers likely have a clear idea where the Ruby Ford is located. To those that think they know, there is contradictory narrative.

If you care to continue the discussion I'd only ask refrain from variations on the 'straw/hominem' approach and focus instead on specifics. The maps are important. That's why they precede both the narrative and the tv content.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

In a thread chartered [v1] as: "Upon book rereads, family tree research and Wiki scouring, have you ever come across some little bit of minutiae that made you go, "Wow, I never noticed that." It doesn't have to be anything ground-shaking, just anything interesting for its own sake." it certainly is pertinent to point out GRRM's geographic inconsistencies precisely because they have gone unnoticed, as far as I can tell. 'Minutiae' = 'small questions' n'est pas?

As Ive indicated, its not just the Sansa chapter that's inconsistent, though her POV conflicts most egregiously, other references to the crossroads and Ruby Ford do so as well. To the extent that few readers likely have a clear idea where the Ruby Ford is located. To those that think they know, there is contradictory narrative.

If you care to continue the discussion I'd only ask refrain from variations on the 'straw/hominem' approach and focus instead on specifics. The maps are important. That's why they precede both the narrative and the tv content.

You're correct pointing out these geographic inconsistencies are within the spirit of the thread.

However a more in depth discussion determining the specific location of the Ruby Fords and Inn of the Crossroads, to the degree that it's even possible considering the inconsistencies you've noted, seems better suited for the Small Question thread. I only mentioned the Small Questions thread because the folks over there are quite helpful and good at answering questions such as these.

[apovsic]

You're correct pointing out these geographic inconsistencies are within the spirit of the thread.

However a more in depth discussion determining the specific location of the Ruby Fords and Inn of the Crossroads, to the degree that it's even possible considering the inconsistencies you've noted, seems better suited for the Small Question thread. I only mentioned the Small Questions thread because the folks over there are quite helpful and good at answering questions such as these.

Or even a new thread? It is quite interesting topic.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Yes, speaking on behalf of Small Questions (:)) I would advise that its more deserving of a new thread. You were right to mention it here of course, as it seems a discrepancy on GRRMs part. But a more in depth discussion would ve suited to another thread, I imagine a relatively popular response

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, speaking on behalf of Small Questions ( :)) I would advise that its more deserving of a new thread. You were right to mention it here of course, as it seems a discrepancy on GRRMs part. But a more in depth discussion would ve suited to another thread, I imagine a relatively popular response

I agree, making a new thread for this subject would be the best thing to do, seeing as how many posts were placed here as a reaction :)

[SpringKing]

I purposely chose this thread because, after researching the narrative, I no longer have a question on this issue. IMO, the geography of the Ruby Ford/Crossroads area should be represented and described according to this image. The source for the map to which I made minor modifications was obtained from Vale of Arryn wiki page on this website. Clearly someone else noticed that there are at least two fords on the Trident proper, per Tyrion, who's acknowledged as well-read.

The unresolved issue is all the non-canon references to the Ruby Ford being located on the Green Fork. This stems from a misinterpretation of the narrative statement that there are no crossings on the Green Fork between the Ruby Ford and the Twins. What that actually means is there are no crossings on the Green Fork between its confluence with the Red Fork at the Trident proper and the Twins. The Ruby Ford, being nearly co-located with the confluence of the Red/Green Forks, is being used synonymously for the confluence.

edit: agree the topic deserves fuller treatment in its own thread.

[coil]

Bowen, probably not. The cat though, yes I think so. If he could have warged Ghost to lead Jon to the cache, he could have warged Balerion to lead Arya to Illyrio and Varys.

Personally I don't think he warged any, for these reasons: thanks to Varamyr and Bran, we know that warging humans is incredibly traumatic. There was some user who hypotized in a nice thread that Bowen tears could indicate that he could have somehow been "controlled", but while I like the idea for outside-of-the-box thinking I cannot agree.

Bowen had all the reasons to attack Jon without any other push, also there's nothing that suggests the if Bloodraven had warged Bowen, the latter wouldn't have been found scratching his own eyes off while screaming.

If Bloodraven is the most powerful warg in the universe (and personally I think that Bran may even be better, but maybe that's for another discussion), nothing suggests that his warging is less demanding for the host.

Before speaking about Balerion, a consideration (and feel free to correct me because Bloodraven is by far my least favorite character so not only I could have missed something, but I could also bee too subjective): we know that he somehow "watches" all the events in Asoiaf - reasonably speaking, the Stark ones.

Most likely, the Starks AND the Targaryens in particular (due to the Azor Ahai business and for blood related issues).

That said however there's nothing that suggests any interest of him about who sits on the Iron Throne.

To me it seems that while Bloodraven peeps on whoever, the only times he takes action is while we are speaking about Bran (who is supposed to be his successor, I believe - that makes Bran special because of his power, not because of his history or his Starkness. He's important because Starks can warg, not because of other family related issues). or Jon (the whole Azor Ahai thing).

All the other times, he watches.

When Jon's around he intervenes by ravens - one in particular.

When Bran's around he sends guides, protects them by ravens and directly teaches Bran about his gift.

A curious episode however shows him protecting and guiding Samwell, but while it constitutes a sort of anomaly the purpose seems related solely to the Azor Ahai story, since Samwell killed an Other and have the means to tell everyone how to do it.

Given these premises:

Up until now nothing suggests that Bloodraven warged anything but ravens, or eventually watched by the Weirwood network.

Nothing mentioned about Cats.

Nothing suggests that he cares about the Iron Throne. Mormont's raven calls Jon "king", yet that's more of a constatation rather than a push in that direction since Bloodraven does nothing more to make Jon recognised as Targaryen - he instead makes him Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, something that couldn't be more afar for the Throne due to political, oath-related and geographical reasons.

Why should Arya interest him? Why guide her to hear a conversation that could or not (since nothing suggests that Bloodraven can see the future) be related to anything relevant, that has absolutely nothing to do with Jon, the Others, warg powers?

I believe it to be too much of a longshot.

The thing about Bloodraven is that all the informations about him and his powers are so clouded that the reader can invent basically anything and that somehow applies.

Due to this, one can say that Bloodraven wargs Balerion to make it go steal Tywin's lunch "just to have a revenge from the guy who killed the old dinasty", which does not make any sense in the plot direction and still can't be called wrong since the informations are unclear.