Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[Castel]

I'm puzzled by this idea that the Ichoroi are justified in resisting damnation through any means. I mean it's not like they were nice and good people and all of a sudden someone decides they are damned. Their situation is similar to someone who committed murder and then went on a killing spree to avoid execution.

We don't know when they were damned. If Bakker is right, we may be the Inchoroi soon. Will we be damned when we start creating hedonistic tribes after we modify ourselves? How soon after? Before the rape but after the free love? If whores are damned anyone can be.

Also; one might object to being damned eternally for finite crimes which you may or may not have known or could reasonably know were crimes. At the very least it is absolutely rational to do anything to resist damnation. Eternity is a bitch like that.

And finally, the most out-there one, just for fun: Don't the Inchoroi have a moral responsibility to the legions of unborn children who will be at the mercy of sadistic gods? Is it not better to kill a million, to prevent the suffering of a billion? What if the people of Earwa advance like the Inchoroi themselves? Gain advanced technology and agriculture and just explode outward? How many people will be doomed to an eternity of torment? The Inchoroi are not monsters, they're saviors. They do not struggle for themselves, but for Earwans :cool4: (that makes me think of earwax every time I type it)

[Hello World Alt]

The text indicates Inchies, for all their subsequent evils, were genuinely wronged or unlucky depending on whether you believe the gods could've revealed themselves to these formerly materialist aliens.

Does the text actually show that or does it show Aurang saying it?

When Aurang ("raper of thousands") says that he is damned because of boundaries of skin I assume that he was talking about rape there, not sex with strangers (although it's impossible to know for sure). It might be that they did not know that what they were doing was wrong but that's not an excuse.

As for the punishment being unfair, yes it is. This makes it rational (not justifiable) from the Inchies POV to fight it with any means possible as Castel said. But it's also rational from a murderer's POV to try whatever he can to avoid imprisonment/execution.

And finally, the most out-there one, just for fun: Don't the Inchoroi have a moral responsibility to the legions of unborn children who will be at the mercy of sadistic gods? Is it not better to kill a million, to prevent the suffering of a billion? What if the people of Earwa advance like the Inchoroi themselves? Gain advanced technology and agriculture and just explode outward? How many people will be doomed to an eternity of torment? The Inchoroi are not monsters, they're saviors. They do not struggle for themselves, but for Earwans :cool4: (that makes me think of earwax every time I type it)

So the Inchoroi are doing all this for the 144,000 or so rape slaves that will remain after their mission is over?

[Sci-2]

When Aurang ("raper of thousands") says that he is damned because of boundaries of skin I assume that he was talking about rape there, not sex with strangers (although it's impossible to know for sure). It might be that they did not know that what they were doing was wrong but that's not an excuse.

[below is how I think the text presents the situation]

Aurang was definitely talking about rape, among other acts. But the Inchies, at least when you get to Aurang's generation, really don't get why rape is bad. They've wired out compassion, dug out most of the neuronal wiring responsible for a moral compass.

The Inchies aren't humans who do something and strangle feelings of guilt or drown in remorse. They are amoral beings who think raping someone is like us eating the meat of animals.

Then somewhere along the way they realize they are damned, but could not have known this until it was too late. Though Aurang may not be right about why the Inchies are damned, depending on how good the Tekne is at figuring out conditions relating to sin and the Outside.

[Francis Buck]

Aurang also states that the Inchoroi were "born for Damnation", which to me implies that they were likely Damned well-before they started all the grafting and shit. The ultimate point of this concept (as far as I see it) is how there's an entire universe of ensouled beings that have zero notions of human morality (how could they?), and they're all being subjected to an anthropomorphic set of rules with an absurd punishment for a failure to adhere. I mean to me this is basically the whole point of the series, or at least one of the primary points; it takes the idea of, "what if the Abrahamic religious mythology and framework was real?", and then runs with it, while actually taking the idea seriously. What if Christianity was real, but Jesus only brought his revelations to Earth?

The obvious line of inquiry this brings us to is, a.) why is Earwa special? and b.) Which reality is shaping the other? Is Earwa special because the life there (humans) happen to share the objective morality of the universe, or is the universe's morality (and thus the gods) shaped by humanity? I tend to think it's the latter, given that the Inchoroi specifically want to wipe out as much of Earwa's population as possible.

Earwa is perhaps literally and figuratively the "center" of everything (again, running with the Abrahamic idea of anthropocentric universe). The noosphere of whatever ensouled beings are on Earwa somehow determines the nature of the Outside. Worship is almost certainly a major component of this. That's why the gods only seem to care about human souls, and also why they work to keep humans worshiping (by sending prophets like Inri Sejenus, for example).

[Hello World Alt]

The Inchies aren't humans who do something and strangle feelings of guilt or drown in remorse. They are amoral beings who think raping someone is like us eating the meat of animals.

Why would he brag about it then? Who brags about the number of animals they've eaten? Aurang bragged about rape the same way he did with being called tyranny and extinguishing whole nations. So he clearly doesn't think of rape as something trivial. He claims that he doesn't understand why violating "boundaries of skin" is bad but he himself has classified it with his other tyrannical atrocities.

It's also important to note that the Inchoroi do understand the notion of a crime and that there is such a thing as unfair punishment. How could they think that damnation is unfair punishment towards them if they can't conceive of that same idea when it comes to all the people that they've tormented?

[Madness]

Who says the Inchoroi even cognate like we do...

Aurang's speech patterns [might be the anomoly] and the Inchoroi in TWP might represent the norm.

There are cognitive dysfunctions (and simple developmental threshold) that showcase an inability to separate "self" from object or others.

[Armitage]

When he says "So long as men are deceived". The deception here is the idea that men think they have free will but all their acts are actually determined by what has come before?

That was my first thought. But elsewhere in TDTCB there's a distinction drawn between deception and "ignorance":

To be ignorant and to be deceived are two different things. To be ignorant is to be a slave of the world. To be deceived is to be the slave of another man. The question will always be: Why, when all men are ignorant, and therefore already slaves, does this latter slavery sting us so?

—AJENCIS, THE EPISTEMOLOGIES

(TDTCB, ch.4 epigram)

Ajencis lived before the Apocalypse, so it's possible the Dûnyain knew of his work.

Kellhus purposely blurs the distinction between ignorance and deception when he tries to master Cnaiür:

But how to proceed?

Nothing deceived so well as the truth.

...

Kellhus said nothing, steered his horse between trees and slapping limbs. He knew the paths of the Scylvendi’s thoughts, the inferences he would make—if he could forget his fury.

“If all men are ignorant of the origins of their thoughts . . .” Cnaiür said.

Anxious to clear the brush, their horses galloped the last few lengths to open, endless ground.

“Then all men are deceived.”

Kellhus secured his gaze for a crucial instant. “They act for reasons that are not their own.”

Will he see?

“Like slaves . . .” Cnaiür began, a stunned scowl on his face. Then he recalled at whom he looked. “But you say this simply to exonerate yourself! What does it matter enslaving slaves, eh, Dûnyain?”

“So long as what comes before remains shrouded, so long as men are already deceived, what does it matter?”

(TDTCB, ch.12)

So what does it mean that nothing deceives so well as the truth? Hypothesis: it's not the true statement itself that matters, but the way in which it's discovered. Kellhus binds people to himself by deceiving them with truth: he tells them truths about themselves and places himself in the role of savior.

Compare, say, Proyas with those who doubt Kellhus (Achamian and Cnaïur in the first trilogy; Achamian, Esmenet, and maybe Sorweel and Malowebi in the second). They refuse Kellhus's revealed truths in favor of perpetual self-analysis, slowly building their own knowledge. (For Cnaiür, this also includes his thirty years pondering Moënghus's words).

[Shryke]

Why would he brag about it then? Who brags about the number of animals they've eaten? Aurang bragged about rape the same way he did with being called tyranny and extinguishing whole nations. So he clearly doesn't think of rape as something trivial. He claims that he doesn't understand why violating "boundaries of skin" is bad but he himself has classified it with his other tyrannical atrocities.

It's also important to note that the Inchoroi do understand the notion of a crime and that there is such a thing as unfair punishment. How could they think that damnation is unfair punishment towards them if they can't conceive of that same idea when it comes to all the people that they've tormented?

Someone who really enjoys eating animals.

Like, think of someone bragging about that big deer they shot last week. Now imagine someone who believes killing deer is morally wrong reacting to that.

[Hello World Alt]

Who says the Inchoroi even cognate like we do...

Aurang's speech patterns [might be the anomoly] and the Inchoroi in TWP might represent the norm.

There are cognitive dysfunctions (and simple developmental threshold) that showcase an inability to separate "self" from object or others.

Well, we only have two Inchoroi left to rely on. And the one that we've seen the POV of, seemed to think/speak just like any run-of-the-mill human psychopath would.

[Shryke]

Well, we only have two Inchoroi left to rely on. And the one that we've seen the POV of, seemed to think/speak just like any run-of-the-mill human psychopath would.

Well yes, when you don't care about what happens to humans and only about your own personal pleasure, that's what it would look like to humans.

The quote from Kellhus' mind:

A race with a hundred names for the vagaries of ejaculation, who had silenced all compassion, all pity, to better savour the reckless chorus of their lusts.

A race that has basically abandoned the idea of compassion for other species in order to better satisfy their desires. The ultimate hedonists.

And without the idea of sin and as long as you think other species don't count (the same way you or I think the feelings of cattle don't matter), then there's nothing wrong with it. From your perspective.

[Shryke]

When he says "So long as men are deceived". The deception here is the idea that men think they have free will but all their acts are actually determined by what has come before?

I always took it to be the idea of sin or crime itself.

The Dunyain are pretty much amoral utilitarians at this point. The idea of crimes don't even make sense from that viewpoint. There are only the things society tells you not to do to keep you in line.

Only so long as men are deceived enough to believe those matter does crime make sense as a concept.

[Callan S.]

Fucking a corpse and loving your husband seem to be the same to the Inchie Brothers.

That made me think of a disturbing mario brothers mod just then. Thanks for that! > :( ;)

Instead of jumping on the heads of goombas...

[generic]

Well, we only have two Inchoroi left to rely on. And the one that we've seen the POV of, seemed to think/speak just like any run-of-the-mill human psychopath would.

After several thousand years with only humans to talk to he probably should sound like that. Also the Inchies are prone to self modifications. When they couldn't communicate they grew mouths. Maybe they grew a conscience too, so their ambassadors know when to cut back on the sodomy?

[Hello World Alt]

Well yes, when you don't care about what happens to humans and only about your own personal pleasure, that's what it would look like to humans.

The point was that Aurang thinks/talks/acts the same way a human psychopath does, and that was a response to something Madness said.

The quote from Kellhus' mind:

A race that has basically abandoned the idea of compassion for other species in order to better satisfy their desires. The ultimate hedonists.

And without the idea of sin and as long as you think other species don't count (the same way you or I think the feelings of cattle don't matter), then there's nothing wrong with it. From your perspective.

No, the quote says that they've silenced all compassion (and pity and other emotions not mentioned here presumably), not compassion towards other species. They either turn-off an emotion completely or they don't, but they can't direct it towards one species only and make that same emotion literally inconceivable when it comes to others.

So this begs the question once again, how can they feel that their punishment is unfair if they are hardwired to not be able to conceive of that same feeling towards others?

[Madness]

1) No, the quote says that they've silenced all compassion (and pity and other emotions not mentioned here presumably), not compassion towards other species. They either turn-off an emotion completely or they don't, but they can't direct it towards one species only and make that same emotion literally inconceivable when it comes to others.

2) So this begs the question once again, how can they feel that their punishment is unfair if they are hardwired to not be able to conceive of that same feeling towards others?

1. It's actually probable they could selectively accomplish what you've highlighted. Again, it's about the differences in the Inchoroi's possible internal states, or perspectives. I don't think if they'd call that emotion of care they have selectively for one species "compassion" or understand it as anything like what we call "compassion."

2. Maybe, it's something a little more mundane. Maybe Inchoroi don't actually differentiate in self, they might not fundamentally understand that whatever their doing to someone isn't as pleasurable as they experience it. I'm definitely thinking something like Asimov:

The hive-consciousness Gaia.

Bakker admonishes how our inevitable neuroaugmentations will change us mentally, denying us the access to the experience we seem to have now (this sort of consciousness may be inaccessible to us post-augmentation). Species-wide grafts are then even more dangerous.

[Callan S.]

So this begs the question once again, how can they feel that their punishment is unfair if they are hardwired to not be able to conceive of that same feeling towards others?

Perhaps there's a self only version of 'unfair'?

When something bad happens to you, well, that's unfair...

But when something bad happens to me, well, that's sooo unfair!

[Shryke]

The point was that Aurang thinks/talks/acts the same way a human psychopath does, and that was a response to something Madness said.

No, the quote says that they've silenced all compassion (and pity and other emotions not mentioned here presumably), not compassion towards other species. They either turn-off an emotion completely or they don't, but they can't direct it towards one species only and make that same emotion literally inconceivable when it comes to others.

It'd be pretty easy to do that actually. You just don't consider anyone but you and yours to worthy of consideration. As I said, we do it all the time with animals.

And of course it sounds like a human psychopath. Psychopathy/sociopathy is rather vague, but a general definition is something like "lacking all care or compassion or consideration for other human beings". In another human, it makes you a monster. In another species .... well, that all depends on which species is making the consideration.

I'm sure you or I would look like psychopathic monsters to an ant, now wouldn't we? What with our complete lack of caring or compassion for them.

It's almost certain there's some sort of species bias going on here. Or some sort of categorization. After all, the inchoroi cooperate with each other. Real psychopaths don't collaborate like that. They fake it for personal gain.

So this begs the question once again, how can they feel that their punishment is unfair if they are hardwired to not be able to conceive of that same feeling towards others?

I don't see what the two have to do with each other. They feel unfairly punished the same way you or I would feel unfairly punished for being put on trial for "genocide against bacteria-kind" for using antibacterial handsoap. Their inability to even conceive of feeling for other not-Inchoroi beings is basically REQUIRED for them to feel unfairly punished.

[Kalbear]

Well, they're either the equivalent of psychopaths or the equivalent of beastialitors depending on how they view humans. Take your pick.

[Shryke]

Well, they're either the equivalent of psychopaths or the equivalent of beastialitors depending on how they view humans. Take your pick.

They are hedonists. I'm not sure they see bestiality as anything special.

[Castel]

As for the punishment being unfair, yes it is. This makes it rational (not justifiable) from the Inchies POV to fight it with any means possible as Castel said. But it's also rational from a murderer's POV to try whatever he can to avoid imprisonment/execution.

One could argue that it's justifiable from a utilitarian perspective. The punishment may or may not be unfair but if Earwa is indeed the chosen world and everyone is saved as long as everyone there dies then it's quite simply a matter of remainder of the cosmos+Inchoroi >>>Earwans