Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[Happy Ent]

We must assume that genetics is the only historical science the Dunyain actually care about. Theirs is a large-scale, multigenerational breeding programme. They care not about history, but they do care about lineages.

Thus it makes some sense that they retain surnames. (But not a lot.)

[Sci-2]

We must assume that genetics is the only historical science the Dunyain actually care about. Theirs is a large-scale, multigenerational breeding programme. They care not about history, but they do care about lineages.

Thus it makes some sense that they retain surnames. (But not a lot.)

Ah, really good point.

Explains what did seem like an odd affectation for bloodlines, but if they had an inkling about breeding plants and animals they probably realized they needed to breed men in the same fashion.

[Tears of Lys]

lol - I had to look up the expression, but I most certainly approve.

Is there still sin if the entire ground is an anarcane turtle?

I looked it up too. Yes, it is a wonderful expression rendered wonderfully in the linked photo: http://www.rockpapercynic.com/strips/2011-11-25.jpg

[Callan S.]

Yeah, I was talking about the exile. He comes back and they don't let him in (this is Kellhus's pov IIRC), which is something that I don't buy because they would have killed him right there. So another explanation is that after he came back from scouting the sranc, whoever runs the place sent him out to find the consult and told the rest that they had exiled him.

I can't remember if Kellhus thought he came back. If he did, yeah, it could go like that, except it seems far too glaring an inconsistancy. The Dunyain brook no liability - surely the other Dunyain would question this, or atleast Kellhus would? If it were a subtle detail, perhaps he'd both trust his own kind and overlook it because of it's subtlety, but as is it seems glaring. Not that Kellhus doesn't go about letting Cnaiur off the hook over and over.

[Callan S.]

Lockesnow - I think I'm primed to think he took something from the twig, rather than just ignoring it. What did the twig/fox say? Dunno what he took. Since the twig shows up way back, right near the start of book 1, where he stares at it blankly, I assumed the transition is in seeing something in it. Maybe the world conspires just as you speak - the world conspires to die?

[unJon]

Since Bakker intends the two trilogies to be plotted as tightly as a sinke book, shouldn't we be really analyzing the prologue of TBCD for foreshadowing. I mean I guess we totally have been (especially some of lockesnow's posts) but a real reread may be in order.

[Madness]

The Almanac.

Also... TSTSNBN is also a thing or it doesn't exist. No inbetween for me.

[Sci-2]

What did the twig/fox say?

Don't know about the twig but I know what the fox says.

On the idea that Kellhus will end all human and Nonmen life and thus deny the gods their feast of souls, I actually do think this is plausible.

Kellhus can end Golgotterath, and then use the No-God to wipe out the Earth. But from a meta-textual perspective I can't see that going down.

[unJon]

Don't know about the twig but I know what the fox says.

On the idea that Kellhus will end all human and Nonmen life and thus deny the gods their feast of souls, I actually do think this is plausible.

Kellhus can end Golgotterath, and then use the No-God to wipe out the Earth. But from a meta-textual perspective I can't see that going down.

the possibility of a third trilogy makes me discount this possibility.

[Sci-2]

the possibility of a third trilogy makes me discount this possibility.

Yeah. I wonder if the final books will cover events after the No-God rises [or events after remnants of Mog Pharu destroyed]. And if the latter, are the Consult still around?

I'm not sure Bakker would want to write those books, as they'd lose a lot of the mystery and nuance of the events that have come up so far.

Kellhus has some kind of plan that involves Proyas losing faith. Maybe it's just to have Proyas lost faith in the Aspect Emperor so that one soul closest to him isn't damned. Maybe it's for Proyas to understand the true nature of the God as the sum of all ensouled beings.

Maybe it's for Mimara to take his place as the true Voice of God.

[Francis Buck]

As I've discussed on the TSA forums, I too am unsure of where the the hell the series is headed post TUC. I feel like we may be over-analyzing that tid-bit of a statement Bakker made about TUC being "the original ending point he'd imagined" or whatever. I mean there's really only two options. Either the series largely ends at TUC, and the next part is essentially an extended prologue, or Bakker's original idea of the ending grew beyond what could fit into a single installment (which would make sense, given that the whole thing was planned as a trilogy to begin with).

[Callan S.]

The third trilogy will be about the advent and rise of the feminist super saiyan and there will be alot of face kicking, for several hundred pages at a time.

[Sci-2]

Well TUC lets us know who is damned. This solves the biggest mystery of the series, and AFAICTell leaves only paltry questions to be answered.

So acknowledging the final destination of souls as the major question facing Earwa, do post-TUC novels offer a solution to damnation? Because if they don't, and the only problem is defeating the No-God + Consult...that kinda feels a bit pointless, like the real villains - The Hundred - are waiting in the Outisde.

But if they do offer a chance to deny the gods...is the chance being offered disenchantment of the world?

Or actually defeating/converting the Hundred by raising armies of Cishaurim to fight in the Outisde?

The latter Fighting the Hundred in the Outside is definitely too hokey, and disenchantment the former....well I don't know if I care enough about any of the characters to watch them fight for oblivion. No to mention at the point all that's needed to shut out the Outside is let the No God float around for a couple years.

[Shryke]

iirc, in this chapter, we are hearing all this from Cnaiur's perspective, then it switches mid scene to Kellhus' perspective and he thinks, "I should tell him the truth and try to deceive him that way, because he thinks everything I say is a lie." That's when Kellhus starts really leveraging the Moenghus/father stuff on Cnaiur. So how much of narrative Kellhus gives Cnaiur (and Leweth) is the truth? I'm inclined to think that Leweth got more of the truth.

Kellhus' first thought about Moenghus is, "I go to dwell in my father's house." Kellhus tells Leweth he is going to Moenghus to aid Moenghus in his war. This makes sense to Leweth, because sons and fathers are natural allies, this information doesn't really lever Leweth for Kellhus unless it's a lie of convenience, a plausible story.

Kellhus tells Cnaiur he is going to Moenghus to kill Moenghus for fucking violating the sacred Dunyain culture.

Interestingly, Cnaiur also wants to kill Moenghus for fucking violating the sacred Scylvendi culture. So what Cnaiur hears, whether or not it is the truth, is exactly what Cnaiur WANTS to hear anyway, it levers him perfectly.

So, we accept that Kellhus was telling the truth when the outcome is he killed Moenghus. But what if this was another situation like the prophecy to Saubon of 'the shrial knights must be punished.' ?

In any event, Kellhus doesn't decide to kill Moenghus because of any rumination we are aware of via the probability trance, he decides to kill his father because a twig lodges itself into his sandal and he thinks this is incredibly meaningful. (and still we doubt, the statement "and Kellhus went mad" !) presumably he also scrys meaning from the shape of his feces when it falls into a twig form by happenstance. The world conspires in the prophets shit, eh?

Also. What if Kellhus mis-interpreted the twig (or he didn't and we readers misinterpret his reaction)? What if not killing Moenghus was the path of the green/live twig and killing Moenghus was the path of the dead twig? What if it is crazy to talk about the proper meaning of a twig? Or what if Kellhus' conclusion (remember he speaks to the No God on the Circumfix and claims to Moenghus that the no god speaks to him) of "No, they are not equal" is actually Kellhus choosing the dead twig.

We readers just willfully misinterpret Kellhus because we are primed by genre and history to expect him to take the path of saving the world. But what if Kellhus takes the dead twig because killing off the world, letting humanity become extinct is the only way to end the cycle of damnation.

The only end game is xenocide, it's the merciful death, quick euthanasia, it'll only take him twenty some years. Because Kellhus weighs the value of making humanity extinct and finds that that will reduce human suffering more because it won't subject infinite future generations to damnation as well.

Making humanity extinct puts a finite end to previously infinite suffering. They are not equal, the dead twig is the better outcome. He's searching for meaninglessness in a meaningful world.

:D

Kellhus doesn't decide to kill Moenghus because of the twig, the twig is just a way to illustrate his thinking. And specifically, how it's changed since the prologue of TDTCB.

[Chun-Li]

I think the Dunyain were known before Ishual. Why else would they say "We are Dunyain child, why would you fear us?" or something to that effect, or at least the meaning of the word Dunyain was known to the Kuniuric. This also works with the prologue's theme of forgotten things, the world forgot the Dunyain for 2,000 years when they entered Ishual, that implies that it had known them before.

[Shryke]

Doesn't the TTT appendix basically say that at the time they were a small and obscure aesthetic sect?

[Chun-Li]

It says that their origins are obscure but many people think they are descendants of some ecstatic sect. I assume that those many people are thinking this in current times (The holy war). What I think is that they were widely known before the first apocalypse, or the Dunyain's question to the young Anasurimbor was really a stupid one, what would you expect when you enter a castle with a child in it during an apocalypse? unless the word Dunyain should mean something to the him.

[Borque]

They might have been fairly well known back in the day. I think this is the sum of what we know about their origins:

Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics (originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism.

From the original Three Seas board. Now at http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=463.15

[Kalbear]

The word is ascetic. It is not aesthetic (though a society of monks dedicated to looking fabulous would be awesome) or ecstatic (a bunch of monks tripping on E would also be awesome).

[Goodbye World]

Actually, it says 'ecstatic' in the glossary.