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Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down


lokisnow

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They might have been fairly well known back in the day. I think this is the sum of what we know about their origins:

From the original Three Seas board. Now at http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=463.15

Can you be atheist in Earwa if you're actually surrounded by people who work miracles like Psatma [does]? Or did the Cults hide their divine powers...which makes absolutely no sense to me.

Perhaps manifestations of the divine only come about every few centuries?

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Can you be atheist in Earwa if you're actually surrounded by people who work miracles like Psatma [does]? Or did the Cults hide their divine powers...which makes absolutely no sense to me.

Perhaps manifestations of the divine only come about every few centuries?

The obvious use of miracles pretty much has to be hidden, otherwise the concept of doubt for the characters wouldn't even exist. Whether it has always been like that, who knows. I'd assume that the gods wouldn't normally interfere as directly as we see in the books if the circumstances weren't so extreme (I.E. Kellhus fucking everything up).

Though, the early Dunyain might simply have not considered them to be gods at all. What's divinity from that kind of perspective? The Hundred are just big powerful organisms that use magic. They're not omnipotent, nor omniscient. What makes a god a god? Raw power?

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Can you be atheist in Earwa if you're actually surrounded by people who work miracles like Psatma [does]? Or did the Cults hide their divine powers...which makes absolutely no sense to me.

Perhaps manifestations of the divine only come about every few centuries?

you remember the first trilogy right? No miracles. Lots of Akka doubt. Eleaznnaor (sp?) super surprised to learn he was really damned.

And the shock of all shocks in TJE to learn that the gods were real . . .

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One of the mysteries to me still is if the Gods are real (and it appears that they are), how did the denizens of Earwa ever learn about them, specifically? How did the knowledge that Gilgaol and Yatwer both existed but were separate entities ever come to be? How did the anthropomorphization (sp) of said Gods happen? Did the Gods used to occupy Earwa in physical form? Did Husyelt and Angeshrael actually sit at the fire together?

During the first series it felt like one could dismiss these questions as the Gods seemed to just be Inrithi superstition. But now it seems confirmed that they are the real deal; just interpreted differently by the Inrithi, Fanim, Zeumi, etc...

I tend to think so. There are numerous lines referencing how the gods once walked among men, before leaving the World in their charge. I think that, in early history, the Hundred literally did walk around in physical form interacting with people, so as to "plant the seeds" of the faith, if you will. This brings up some questions though, namely A:) Why didn't they do this with Nonmen?, and B:) Did the Hundred do this with any of the other ensouled beings in the universe?

I generally believe that Earwa is indeed the literal center of the Bakkerverse, and that for some reason, the location is important, perhaps like a lock keeping the Outside...well, outside. It's clearly "special", since we know that sorcery was never encountered before by the Inchoroi. It also brings up a lot of questions regarding the Inchoroi themselves. When seeking out Earwa, did they know of the Hundred, or just the fact of damnation (my guess is the latter)? What does Earwa have to do with stopping damnation? Does the 144,000 rule only apply on Earwa? I think it must, otherwise there's no point in coming there. Then again, the Inchoroi didn't seem to be planning on the No-God initially, that was something that came out of the Consult. In the end we're left with the fact that, somehow, there's something special about Earwa, and whatever it is, and it can shut off the Outside, and the Hundred obviously don't want that.

Might be enough motive to keep population of that planet utterly deluded into worship, ne?

ETA: On another topic, I had to drive my mom to a distant doctor's appointment, and I knew there was going to be a long wait, and my Kindle was out of battery, so as I often do on these occasions (more-so now that I'm writing an Earwa fanfiction), I grabbed a random TSA book of my shelf. In this case, TTT. Two theories that I've subscribed to before, were both notably reinforced for me.

1:) Moe ain't dead. He's Meppa. The ridiculous amount of parallels between Leto and Muad'dib from Dune are enough for me to believe it anyway, but description of Moe's death...I just don't buy it. I don't want know exactly what he did, but I suspect he used an advanced form of the Psukhe to create the illusion of death, possibly even his own version of transpositioning, which he early used to assist in the assassination of the the Scarlet Spires Grandmaster.

2:) Chanv is sorceror salt. I think this is almost a given, between what little sprinklings of info we know about the substance throughout the text, and then the part with the little boy collecting the salt (his fortune). I also think that the reason the ashes of "great Nonmen" has the power that it does is not because of the nebulous concept of them being "great" in some unknown way, but either because they're sorcerors, or because there's something inherently magical about Nonmen in general (which is why Srancflesh will presumably have similar, but more horrible, effects). I mentioned this on TSA, but I can't be the only who finds the prospect of eating Sranc to be as ominous as fuck, and almost certain to have some kind of grotesque side-effects. I'm thinking that Srancflesh with the crack to the Nonman's cocaine.

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It's clearly "special", since we know that sorcery was never encountered before by the Inchoroi.

I think you're right, but then how does the Inverse Fire work, if the Inchies never groked magick?

eta:

-If Moe is Meppa, Bakker will be hard pressed to justify how no one saw his Scylvendi scars.

-I though we established that salt alone was incredibly valuable given the time period and location?

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I think you're right, but then how does the Inverse Fire work, if the Inchies never groked magick?
Why would you think it would have anything to do with magic? None of their other abilities - including the ability to grant magical power - is magical in origin. Do you think that the only way to connect to the Outside is via sorcery?
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Why would you think it would have anything to do with magic? None of their other abilities - including the ability to grant magical power - is magical in origin. Do you think that the only way to connect to the Outside is via sorcery?

I'm not saying it's magical. I'm not even saying it definitely connects to the Outside - might just be the Inchie Bros running Doom 3000's opening cut scene on a loop.

But assuming it does connect to the Outside via science, that's not an explanation for how it works. What are the metaphysics of the Bakkerverse that allow a machine to offer a window to Hell?

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But assuming it does connect to the Outside via science, that's not an explanation for how it works. What are the metaphysics of the Bakkerverse that allow a machine to offer a window to Hell?
Why does it need to be metaphysics?


We know we can travel to the Outside, and that things from the Outside can influence and travel to here. At that point the how is not metaphysics - it's just physics.


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Why does it need to be metaphysics?

We know we can travel to the Outside, and that things from the Outside can influence and travel to here. At that point the how is not metaphysics - it's just physics.

Okay, how does the physics work? What's What are the principles the Inchies utilize to build their window to Hell?

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Okay, how does the physics work? What's What are the principles the Inchies utilize to build their window to Hell?

You mean in terms of numbers and equations? I think some people have gone too far in their attempts to rationalize everything in the Bakkerverse to the point where they have forgotten that in the end this is fantasy.

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You mean in terms of numbers and equations? I think some people have gone too far in their attempts to rationalize everything in the Bakkerverse to the point where they have forgotten that in the end this is fantasy.

Nah, it could just be very advanced physics really. If you look at quantum mechanics today, there are things that might seem magical to most people, for example particles literally popping in and out of existence, and things like quantum entanglement. There is also the possibility of a multiverse, that there is an infinite number of universes/worlds with laws of physics that could be entirely different than ours.

If you think about it, many forms of sorcery in the Bakkerverse are theoretically possible through quantum entanglement like teleportation and cants of calling. Even immortality might be achieved one day with medicine or artificial intelligence.

Which brings me to this crackpot: after some sort of apocalypse ended all human civilization on earth, two groups of people managed to survive. The first on what eventually became Earwa became separated and were forced to live according to the principles of natural selection once more until they eventually evolved into the Nonmen/Cunuroi. The other group in Eanna managed to remain civilized to a degree and continued to minimize the effects of natural selection the way we do today. Those two groups remained separated until the Prophet of the Tusk led the Men back to Earwa. Then the Inchoroi came from another universe, and like I said most sorcery is theoretically possible with advanced physics, it's like Arthur C. Clarke said, 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

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Okay, how does the physics work? What's What are the principles the Inchies utilize to build their window to Hell?

You basically set up a com link with the first level turtle so you can tell him (or her) where you want your window to be, then he talks to the other turtles and sorts stuff out.

ETA: Forgot lettuce. You might need some lettuce too, turtles like that.

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The word is ascetic. It is not aesthetic (though a society of monks dedicated to looking fabulous would be awesome) or ecstatic (a bunch of monks tripping on E would also be awesome).

Ecstatic cults were a thing e.g. Dionysus.

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You mean in terms of numbers and equations? I think some people have gone too far in their attempts to rationalize everything in the Bakkerverse to the point where they have forgotten that in the end this is fantasy.

Not No need for equations. I just mean you can summarize how the physics of our reality allows for various technologies to exist. What are the principles that allow the Inverse Fire to peer into Hell? Is it because there is no true divide between Outside and Inward, and it's all a matter of how lucidly the God dreams? (So Idealism basically.)

However the Inverse Fire works, it has to interact in some way with the Outside utilizing the reductionism that makes the Tekne work. So why does the Fire only work as a viewing mechanism?

The whole material/spiritual interaction problem that dualistic proponents in our reality face was overcome via science [if the IF is real], so figuring out possibilities may give us insight into how the Bakkerverse works.

Alternatively, lack of an adequate explanation lends some more credence to the idea that the Inverse Fire is like those machines that make you think you're having a divine experience. After all, we only know that Shae was certain about what he saw, not that Shae saw anything real.

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Not No need for equations. I just mean you can summarize how the physics of our reality allows for various technologies to exist. What are the principles that allow the Inverse Fire to peer into Hell? Is it because there is no true divide between Outside and Inward, and it's all a matter of how lucidly the God dreams? (So Idealism basically.)

However the Inverse Fire works, it has to interact in some way with the Outside utilizing the reductionism that makes the Tekne work. So why does the Fire only work as a viewing mechanism?

The whole material/spiritual interaction problem that dualistic proponents in our reality face was overcome via science [if the IF is real], so figuring out possibilities may give us insight into how the Bakkerverse works.

Could be possible. First, the machine is sitting on top of the deepest Topos in Eärwa. This could affect it and/or be a part of the reason it works. You could add some quantum mechanical handwaving about wave fields not collapsing in the normal way due to the Topos. Or, that as the Tekne developed, the Inchoroi dug to deep into the spaces between the quarks, or somesuch, and accidentally blundered into the arcane realm.

Alternatively, lack of an adequate explanation lends some more credence to the idea that the Inverse Fire is like those machines that make you think you're having a divine experience. After all, we only know that Shae was certain about what he saw, not that Shae saw anything real.

I lean towards it just being the Inchoroi holodeck running some kind of Inchoroi adult entertainment with the S&M switch turned all the way to 11.
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snip

You could add some quantum mechanical handwaving about wave fields not collapsing in the normal way due to the Topos. Or, that as the Tekne developed, the Inchoroi dug to deep into the spaces between the quarks, or somesuch, and accidentally blundered into the arcane realm.

Wow, and I thought the aSoIaF board was giving me headaches, but you guys took it to a whole new level. 10/10 :thumbsup:

Could it be that the entire Bakkerverse is actually made up of sub-atomic particles or that it exists inside of an atom? I mean I've heard that you can't really apply quantum mechanics to big stuff.

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Wow, and I thought the aSoIaF board was giving me headaches, but you guys took it to a whole new level. 10/10 :thumbsup:

Just wait till we start talking about pulling cow hearts out of our rectums again...

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