Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[Sci-2]

Could be possible. First, the machine is sitting on top of the deepest Topos in Eärwa. This could affect it and/or be a part of the reason it works. You could add some quantum mechanical handwaving about wave fields not collapsing in the normal way due to the Topos. Or, that as the Tekne developed, the Inchoroi dug to deep into the spaces between the quarks, or somesuch, and accidentally blundered into the arcane realm.

I lean towards it just being the Inchoroi holodeck running some kind of Inchoroi adult entertainment with the S&M switch turned all the way to 11.

I think the issue is the quantum mechanical handwaving. It's still a material universe interacting with what is essentially a collective lucid dream.

If Bakker wasn't a student of philosophy, I'd figure this dualistic interaction was just something you accept when reading a fantasy novel.

If the IF is real, to me it strongly suggests the in character proponents of Idealism aka "God dreamed up creation" are in fact correct.

This puts anarcane ground into play, as such areas are held to be places where the God dreams "most lucidly". From a meta-textual level, it'd be interesting to see the false prophet & "Prince of Nothing" return to Arithau after becoming the Aspect Emperor and use that place to genuinely communicate with the God.

[unJon]

You all are over analyzing. Bakker on record that he will keep all the mechanics fuzzy.

[Francis Buck]

I think the Inverse Fire is a purely Tekne creation (totally non-sorcerous). We already know that the No-God is at least partially, if not entirely Tekne-built, so it's clearly possible for "conventional technology" (non-arcane) stuff to interact with the metaphysical elements of the Bakkerverse. I also think the Inverse Fire is probably the thing that's been driving the Inchoroi from the beginning (I also don't think it's just a brainwashing device, nor did the Inchoroi necessarily intend to use it that way after the fact).

As for all the "God dreaming lucidly" stuff, I don't know what to make of that at this point, since I don't think the God is actually interacting with the narrative in any significant way -- I think it's still sleeping. So I tend to believe those comments are the characters misconstruing legends with snippets of reality. If anything it would make more sense to me that anarcane ground is where the gods (as in the Hundred) are "dreaming most lucidly". They don't seem to like sorcerors (which is probably why they're Marked for damnation by default, which in turn is likely because sorcerors have the potential to fuck with the Hundred's regime the most, so-to-speak).

ETA:

You all are over analyzing. Bakker on record that he will keep all the mechanics fuzzy.

Also, this. I don't think he's going to get overly-deep into the actual physical structure of the Outside and how it pertains to Earwa and such, along with all of the arcane shit shit that goes along with it. Not on the level of quantum mechanical explanations for stuff, I mean. I think the Bakkerverse is meant to be very "classical". I don't think that, as far as the worldbuilding goes, stuff like quantum mechanics really exists in the Bakkerverse, since then you'd betting into the possibility of multiple universes, multiple timelines, etc. It's not necessary. The Bakkerverse is like what humans from Biblical times thought the universe was, only taken through enough of a scientific lens for it to seem, in its own way, "realistic".

[Kalbear]

I think we are being set up to mock certainty. Both Kellhus and the inchoroi are utterly certain of their beliefs because of their experience, but not because of necessarily facts. Kellhus does the classic confirmation bias thing of seeing meaning in basic things and ignoring others. The inchies are absolutely certain because of a machine.

I think that we will find the only real truth is mimara.

[Sci-2]

You all are over analyzing. Bakker on record that he will keep all the mechanics fuzzy.

It's not that Bakker is going to spell out the mechanics, it's whether he's consider how material-spiritual science would work.

And I do think he's going to reveal that much, since the very idea of the No-God depends on the Tekne influencing the cycle of souls.

I think we are being set up to mock certainty. Both Kellhus and the inchoroi are utterly certain of their beliefs because of their experience, but not because of necessarily facts. Kellhus does the classic confirmation bias thing of seeing meaning in basic things and ignoring others. The inchies are absolutely certain because of a machine.

I think that we will find the only real truth is mimara.

But even Mimara seems to be potentially tainted by cultural bias. Bakker's gone on record that no one has the same view of the Outside or damnation, even planar travelers, but somehow Mimara not only sees Galian's damnation but it's in perfect accordance with some cultural depiction?

[Borque]

You all are over analyzing.

That's what left for us to do until TUC comes out.

So reduced. We've become so pitiful.

[Goodbye World]

Was the mention of some Scylvendi worshiping the No-God meant as a red herring? Or does anyone else think that Mog-pharau is the resurrected body of Lokung?

[Galbrod]

I think the Inverse Fire is a purely Tekne creation (totally non-sorcerous).

I think the Inverse Fire is a Tekne crated way of experiencing the Outside through the piece of the outside that resides within us (i.e. the soul).

[Francis Buck]

I think the Inverse Fire is a Tekne crated way of experiencing the Outside through the piece of the outside that resides within us (i.e. the soul).

That's a pretty great idea, and makes some sense of the name as well.

[Sci-2]

That's a pretty great idea, and makes some sense of the name as well.

+1. Nice.

[unJon]

Crackpot: the Tekne is not equal to science. We are just primed to think that because we are a world of science and the few references have been vague enough that Tekne could refer to science as we know it. One of the TUC revelations will actually be that Tekne is a different type of magic that doesn't rely on the ability to perceive the onto an speak clear meanings.

[Armitage]

I think the Inverse Fire is a Tekne crated way of experiencing the Outside through the piece of the outside that resides within us (i.e. the soul).

Nice.

Nau-Cayûti called Golgotterath a "dead womb." So:

Inverse Fire : Ark :: Judging Eye : Mimara

[Chun-Li]

Was the mention of some Scylvendi worshiping the No-God meant as a red herring? Or does anyone else think that Mog-pharau is the resurrected body of Lokung?

I thought that we know this for sure, no? At least that's what's implied in the glossary.

Just wait till we start talking about pulling cow hearts out of our rectums again...

That's actually better than trying to come up with a scientific explanation of how the Inchoroi built a portal to hell using quantum mechanics.

Crackpot: the Tekne is not equal to science. We are just primed to think that because we are a world of science and the few references have been vague enough that Tekne could refer to science as we know it. One of the TUC revelations will actually be that Tekne is a different type of magic that doesn't rely on the ability to perceive the onto an speak clear meanings.

How would you distinguish it from science then?

[Sci-2]

That's actually better than trying to come up with a scientific explanation of how the Inchoroi built a portal to hell using quantum mechanics.

Actually, it's not necessarily as far fetched as some people think. One of the things that separates souls from soulless beings is the apprehension of paradox.

Seems to me Bakker is basing this on Penrose's idea* that human consciousness transcends computation due to certain kinds of mathematical understanding. Penrose also thinks that consciousness is the collapse of the wave function, via his and Hammeroff's Orch OR theory.

*Outside of Earwa I'm pretty sure Bakker isn't convinced by quantum consciousness ideas. IIRC when I brought up Pribram and Penrose he said something along the lines of "I doubt this leads to anything but it'd be cool if one of these guys is right."

[And he might've flat out rejected Orch OR.]

[Francis Buck]

Actually, it's not necessarily as far fetched as some people think. One of the things that separates souls from soulless beings is the apprehension of paradox.

Seems to me Bakker is basing this on Penrose's idea* that human consciousness transcends computation due to certain kinds of mathematical understanding. Penrose also thinks that consciousness is the collapse of the wave function, via his and Hammeroff's Orch OR theory.

I agree that this is where's coming from with the distinction between souled/ensouled beings. A soul is basically a free-will card, even if very few of the creatures with souls ever manage to exert that will.

Kind of a tangent here, but I noticed in the glossary that Aurax was actually the one to teach the Tekne. I found that interesting, since it might imply that he's perhaps smarter than Aurang? I also think it's very interesting that we've yet to explicitly see Aurax. For some reason I'd always been under the impression that he was somehow the "lesser" of the two brothers, but what if he turned out to be a serious badass, and Aurang was more of the lackey?

Honestly I'm just curious in general to see what differences there are between the two Inchoroi. I'd imagine we'll get properly introduced to Aurax in TUC (as well as other members of the Consult).

[Goodbye World]

I also think it's very interesting that we've yet to explicitly see Aurax.

Weird, isn't he the 'xurjranc' at the end of TWP? Or do you mean something else by explicitly seeing him?

[Kalbear]

Seems to me Bakker is basing this on Penrose's idea* that human consciousness transcends computation due to certain kinds of mathematical understanding. Penrose also thinks that consciousness is the collapse of the wave function, via his and Hammeroff's Orch OR theory.

Still think that's one of the stupidest things ever. Computers can easily understand paradox. Perhaps a purely logical monotonic system can't do so - but a set of them certainly can. I hate that this is a thing; it's basically a horrible understanding of how computers can work and would work. The notion that a computer system has to be godel-complete is stupid. A specific program bit might have to be - but not all do.

I liked this argument best:

resting on the fallacy that all computational algorithms must be capable of mathematical description. As a counter-example, Searle cites the assignment of license plate numbers to specific vehicle identification numbers, in order to register a vehicle. According to Searle, no mathematical function can be used to connect a known VIN with its LPN, but the process of assignment is quite simple—namely, "first come, first served"—and can be performed entirely by a computer.

[lokisnow]

If I'm not mistake, I think tekne means something close to "craft" which could certainly be technological but by no means must necessarily be so. It fits.

tekne is also turkish for ark.

[Sci-2]

I agree that this is where's coming from with the distinction between souled/ensouled beings.

Yeah, I think the distinction between souled and ensouled - if such a genuine distinction exists - is one of the big questions Bakker is asking.

Makes me wonder if my crackpot is right, and the disenchantment that ends the series has all souls pulled into the Outside to suffer damnation while the husks that remain of our cast express relief at being "saved" from such a fate.

And so Earwa becomes Earth, soulless skin spies calling themselves human, breeding and hungering in the manner of Sranc as they revel in the gifts of the Tekne.

Kind of a tangent here, but I noticed in the glossary that Aurax was actually the one to teach the Tekne. I found that interesting, since it might imply that he's perhaps smarter than Aurang? I also think it's very interesting that we've yet to explicitly see Aurax. For some reason I'd always been under the impression that he was somehow the "lesser" of the two brothers, but what if he turned out to be a serious badass, and Aurang was more of the lackey?

I still think we saw Aurax in the TWP epilogue. The personality of that Inchie was very different from Aurang.

Regarding Aurang's Int/Wis scores -> IIRC Aurang was one of the Inchie Physicians that tending to the Nonmen females and that during this time of peace they referred to him with the Nonmen term for key stone?

Still think that's one of the stupidest things ever. Computers can easily understand paradox. Perhaps a purely logical monotonic system can't do so - but a set of them certainly can. I hate that this is a thing; it's basically a horrible understanding of how computers can work and would work. The notion that a computer system has to be godel-complete is stupid. A specific program bit might have to be - but not all do.

Well, it's not a very accepted position, though Penrose in the past has lamented that only Chalmers really understood his arguments, and that everyone else was attacking approximations resulting for from mischaracterization.

For my part I've not read Shadows of the Mind, so I can't speak to how good an argument Penrose makes*. I was thinking about how it applies to Earwa and the rest of the Bakkerverse. It seems reductionism may lead to the Platonic world that Penrose believes reveals itself at the Planck scale.

Additionally, if you accept that to derive the necessary paradoxes required language to be understood from a computational perspective, then Aporetics also was a sort of reductionism that led to the same place...assuming that Mimara's experience of the God via staring into Chorae was real.

*In the interest of fairness, here's the latest published overview of Orch OR for people to decide themselves how much sense some of it does/doesn't make. [Penrose's mathematical arguments aren't really covered though.]

[Kalbear]

Guess I don't understand your point or Bakker's, then. How does reductionism imply that the aporetics lead to a platonic world?