Happy Ent Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 The Inchoroi evolved into beings of sentience, but evolution took them along a path made them sinners by nature. One nitpick: we can assume that the Inchoroi modified themselves, instead of waiting for evolution to take care of that. The SF story I recommended upthread has the same premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 One nitpick: we can assume that the Inchoroi modified themselves, instead of waiting for evolution to take care of that. The SF story I recommended upthread has the same premise. Well, I'm of the mind that it's both; they evolved in a certain direction (thus their nature ebing completely out of their control), and then later modified themselves further to accentuate the "best" parts of themselves). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Interesting, thanks for the link. I've read some of the rationality tracts, stuff relating to AI, and the Harry Potter fan fic, but never knew about this. I actually do think the Inchies genuinely didn't think they were wrong. They aren't humans trying to rationalize bad behavior, they legitimately don't understand what is sacrosanct about "boundaries of skin".The removed anything that would hinder their love...like compassion... I think the idea is that they thought if they modified parts of their brain (which entails certain removals, as do all modification), they would still be magically human/whatever it is they were. They've removed the parts that could think they were wrong about this stuff. Once those parts are gone, well, so too is any inclination to have parts like that. It's like a feedback loop - they remove parts, which cease to have an influence on certain desires, these desires drive them to remove more parts...and so on, in a hideous loop. The inchies, in a way, died out a long, long time ago. Only their unknown unknown still lives on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 They've removed the parts that could think they were wrong about this stuff. Once those parts are gone, well, so too is any inclination to have parts like that. In the automatically translated words of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People: "Humankind!" the Lady 3rd said, as though addressing someone by name. "Humankind, you prefer the absence of pain to its presence. When my own kind attained to technology, we eliminated the causes of suffering among ourselves. Bodily pain, embarrassment, and romantic conflicts are no longer permitted to exist. Humankind, you prefer the presence of pleasure to its absence. We have devoted ourselves to the intensity of pleasure, of sex and childbirth anduntranslatable 2. Humankind, you prefer truth to lies. By our nature we do not communicate statements disbelieved, as you do with humor, modesty, and fiction; we have even learned to refrain from withholding information, though we possess that capability. Humankind, you prefer peace to violence. Our society is without crime and without war. Through symmetric sharing and untranslatable 4, we share our joys and are pleasured together. Our name for ourselves is not expressible in your language. But to you, humankind, we now name ourselves after the highest values we share: we are the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodbye World Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 well, obviously they knew about the dead king's dying declaration and went to ishual to save his rotter and fulfill the prophetics. Don't know if you're joking or not, but I noticed that in the prologue Ganrelka and co. glimpse the eyes of wolves and then when the Dunyain come they are described as a wolf like people, so could it be that they've been watching the whole time? On a side note, am I the only one who feels sorry for the Inchoroi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Don't know if you're joking or not, but I noticed that in the prologue Ganrelka and co. glimpse the eyes of wolves and then when the Dunyain come they are described as a wolf like people, so could it be that they've been watching the whole time? On a side note, am I the only one who feels sorry for the Inchoroi? Depends on the day.I can quite easily believe that they are some future version of us who had some liberal revolution then came to the horrific realization that they were in the one universe where this was not acceptable and driven mad by the fact, they leapt off the slippery slope and went full baby-raping,dick-spanking evil. But I can also accept that they are meant to be some future version of us, that got too caught up in a modification loop and went full baby-raping, dick-spanking evil (not that the word would have any meaning to them) and are getting punished for it.And despite having a problem with the whole concept of damnation I can tolerate that much better than the first option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 they leapt off the slippery slope and went full baby-raping,dick-spanking evil. Where do they behave like that? (This issue is a source of constant disagreement on this forum.) The Inchoroi are not evil, they are a race of lovers. They are the super-happy fun-fun people in the short story I linked. They believe in pleasure. They do not believe in guilt, probably because they erased that feeling from their species. Assume the super-happy fun fun aliens returned to their planet, and continued to live for a few millennia. Then they suddenly find out that morality is real, that they are all damned because of arbitrary ethical decisions on Eärwa. Because of boundaries of skin. What can they do? They leave their home world, looking for Eärwa, and reducing it to 144,000 souls (because some as-yet-undisclosed rule says so.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Well, I think it's fair to say that the Inchoroi back on their home planet and the Inchoroi of modern Earwa might be two different matters. I feel bad for the Inchoroi as a race (along with pretty much every other ensouled being in the Bakkerverse), but I certainly dont feel bad for Aurang and Aurax. I'd definitely consider them "evil" by my own real world standards of morality, even if I'm sympathetic to their goals on some level (ending Damnation). That being said, I dont think anyone is deserving of eternal torture, regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 It’s the baby-raping, dick-spanking part I object to. They are evil in the sense of wanting to implement genocide. (Or rather, they are our enemies. They are as evil as humans are when they exterminate rats.) But, unlike many denizens of this board, they never strike me as particularly evil in their lovemaking. They seem to get no particular pleasure from rape or torture, for instance. No more than humans, for certain! In fact, when we see an Inchoroi torture somebody, they pleasure the poor woman to death. I’ll take that over the interrogation techniques of the Scylvendi any day. Some of their constructs, such as the Sranc and Skin Spies, seem to get off on violence, degradation, domination and general debauchery. (They are constructed thus.) But we haven’t seen the Inchoroi behave like that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 But, unlike many denizens of this board, they never strike me as particularly evil in their lovemaking.They literally split a person in half by cutting them open and then insert their dick into the hole. I'm not sure what denizens you're comparing to, but I'm fairly certain that only at the LA con did we actually cut people open and fuck their glistening intestines. I guess we can start talking about what is and isn't evil, but in general it's largely considered evil to mind control people and then have them fuck. This is largely and widely considered a form of rape. We do see Aurang take quite a bit of pleasure with Esmi the couple of times that he's with her, actually, so the notion that they don't get pleasure from rape/torture is clearly wrong; he even remarks on this fact quite happily (something about a 12 talent peach indeed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Regardess they're really...fantasy evil. Like, they're what you expect evil people in fantasy to be like. Cackling, raping (oh, I'm sorry, pleasuring :rolleyes: ) people, chewing the scenery and masturbating when talking about their backstory. Just really showy evil with a side of semen and mental trauma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I think they act evil, but possibly don't understand why there is anything wrong with what they are doing. They are like the followers of Descartes fucking with animals for fun, because to them animals are just fleshy machines. When they discovered the mystical side to the universe, and the morality carved into reality, they felt like they were the victims. Beings like the Nonmen and Shae, OTOH, understand that they are doing something immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 It’s the baby-raping, dick-spanking part I object to. They are evil in the sense of wanting to implement genocide. (Or rather, they are our enemies. They are as evil as humans are when they exterminate rats.) But, unlike many denizens of this board, they never strike me as particularly evil in their lovemaking. They seem to get no particular pleasure from rape or torture, for instance. No more than humans, for certain! In fact, when we see an Inchoroi torture somebody, they pleasure the poor woman to death. I’ll take that over the interrogation techniques of the Scylvendi any day.How about asking her what she'd prefer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I think they act evil, but possibly don't understand why there is anything wrong with what they are doing. They are like the followers of Descartes fucking with animals for fun, because to them animals are just fleshy machines. When they discovered the mystical side to the universe, and the morality carved into reality, they felt like they were the victims. Beings like the Nonmen and Shae, OTOH, understand that they are doing something immoral.I gotta ask, if it wasn't the universe and instead just dudes with big sticks smacking them into a pain furnace, would you call it mystical and morality? Or big sticks? Really, really big sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I gotta ask, if it wasn't the universe and instead just dudes with big sticks smacking them into a pain furnace, would you call it mystical and morality? Or big sticks?Really, really big sticks. Well mystical, or magical, or metaphysical, is just used to differentiate from the materialist expectations I think the Inchies had before they discovered the Outside and the likelihood of their damnation. "Morality" just because it defines the rules for conduct. I suppose "commandments" might be a more accurate term seeing how Earwa morality doesn't seem to line up perfectly with modern day moral expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 They literally split a person in half by cutting them open and then insert their dick into the hole. This would indeed defeat my argument. Where does this scene happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 How about asking her what she'd prefer? Huh? It’s not about what she prefers. I’m talking about the preferences of the Inchoroi, and trying to make the argument that they are superhappy fun-fun people whose primary motivation is guilt-free pleasure. (This does not make them evil. In fact, the linked short story makes it good.) I’m not even close to arguing that they have any kind of empathy or even interest in the motivations and desires of another species. (This does not make them evil, no more than our lack of empathy with rats makes us evil. Callous, maybe. At worst.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodbye World Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Killing someone's loved ones in front of them as a form of interrogation makes one evil, doesn't it? And who says that the way we treat animals doesn't make us evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Killing someone's loved ones in front of them as a form of interrogation makes one evil, doesn't it? Whatever. The point is that the existence of interrogation techniques by itself are not a specifically Inchoroi trait. It makes the Inchoroi as evil as everybody else. It’s not in their nature, and not the explanation of why they are damned, any more than any other group (such as the Scylvendi). What I want to get away from is the idea that the Inchoroi are particularly despicable in their behaviour. (In a way that the Sranc or Skin Spies are, for instance.) The Inchoroi aren’t sadistic rape aliens who leave only for inflicting terror, fear, and pain; they are the super-happy fun fun aliens. A race of lovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodbye World Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 What I want to get away from is the idea that the Inchoroi are particularly despicable in their behaviour. (In a way that the Sranc or Skin Spies are, for instance.) The Inchoroi aren’t sadistic rape aliens who leave only for inflicting terror, fear, and pain; they are the super-happy fun fun aliens. A race of lovers. So the Inchoroi are not as bad as the creatures they created to do their sadistic raping for them? Right, "whatever". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.