Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[Sci-2]

Rather than they were wrong about there not being any big powerful baddasses with massive sticks (pendulous, even) who would want to come hit them with their sticks.

So when you take it they are wrong, which they are, you go to the first wrong. As if it could be the only one.

Fair enough. But we don't even know if the gods damn people or if people are simply damned for their sins and this damnation makes them accessible to the predations of the Hundred and Ciphrang.

It could be that morality is just a set of rules enforced by extraplanars in the Outside, or is a fundamental property of existence in the way of the gravitational constant.

=-=-=

all based on the value system of a bunch of primitive monkey men, whose sense of morality is so basic and unrefined that certain animals are considered holy because, uh, they're holy, so shut up about it.

Is morality believer based? Seems like morality simply is, to me anyway. Earwa may be special because natural selection produced sentients whose neural wiring is close enough to the arbitrary morality that determines the actuality and severity damnation.

[Happy Ent]

I think HE was questioning whether the Ichies are elementals of evil in the way of D&D fiend races, or if they are beings with an alien morality.Well, D&D fiend races are essentially beings with an alien morality.

Not quite.

I’m not questioning whether they “just“ have an alien morality, because we all agree on that. They do have an alien morality.

All I’m saying is that they do not delight in suffering, brutality, domination, or violence. (By contrast, the Sranc do.) For the Inchoroi, it’s the nature of their alien morality I want to talk about. When they see something, they aren’t interested in hurting or destroying or violating it. They are interested in having pleasurable sex with it.

I want to get away from our idea that the Consult consists of sadists. I doesn’t. It has built some sadist races. But he Inchoroi just want pleasure, and the Mangaecca and Nonmen are doomed for reasons that we don’t yet understand. But none of them is particularly interested in violence of the sake of violence. (By contrast, the Sranc are.)

[Kalbear]

How do you explain the wall of torment at Golgotterath, then? How do you explain the part where Aurax (we think) draws a claw down the wife's chest and draws blood?

[Shryke]

Yeah, I think the Inchoroi are into the rough stuff just as much as anything else. They aren't strictly sadists, but sadism is just another form of hedonism they take part in.

[Chun-Li]

Aurang takes tremendous pride in all the people he killed/destroyed/raped.

He had burned the Great Library of Sauglish. He had stormed the heights of Holy Trysë. He had made fires of their cities, beacons that shone through the very void. He had extinguished nations—bled whole peoples white! Aurang, the Norsirai of Kûniüri had called him “the Warlord.” Perhaps the most far-seeing of his many names.

He also calls himself "raper of thousands", not pleasurer. There is a difference there.

And sadism is to take pleasure in inflicting pain/humiliation. So it's violence for the sake of pleasure, not violence for the sake of violence.

ETA: The most far-seeing of his many names is 'the warlord', not something like 'The great lover' or the 'lovelord'.

[Borque]

How do you explain the wall of torment at Golgotterath, then?

I think the wall was made, or at least designed, by Mekeritrig. To remember.

[Happy Ent]

How do you explain the wall of torment at Golgotterath, then? How do you explain the part where Aurax (we think) draws a claw down the wife's chest and draws blood?

Could you be specific about the wall of torment again? I’ve tried to find the passage I remember, but can’t even find a mention of the Inchoroi. I remember some Bashrag and Mekki.

[Happy Ent]

They aren't strictly sadists, but sadism is just another form of hedonism they take part in.

Where? When? Please show me. We have several examples, including obvious situations where sadism, were it part of their nature, would naturally appear. In particular, the Inchoroi interrogations of Esmi, Kellhus, and Valrissa. None of them is particularly sadistic. Instead, they are pleasant beyond belief, enough to blow Esmi’s experienced mind and almost break Kellhus.

We have several torture scenes between non-Inchoroi (Cnaiür on Kellhus, the buggering of the Scylvendi captives, Ishual defectives, Moënghus’s skin spy, Mekki on Akka at the wall, Mimara’s punishment, Akka in the Uborian circle, skin spy on Serwë, etc.) that explore the space of motivations, techniques, and torturer’s behaviours. The Inchoroi do not come off as particularly sadistic. On the contrary. They take no particular delight from inflict pain or terror.

Given a choice of hedonistic activities, sadism doesn’t seem to be particularly delicious to them, since they refrain from exercising it even during torture.

(I’m not saying they find sadism distasteful or off the table for them. It’s clearly within the space of activities that they can turn into something delightful. They certainly have no qualms about it, and we know for a fact that they are removed compassion from their range of psychological patterns. We can assume that this makes it relatively easy for them to invent sadistic practices that they themselves find pleasurable. Yet they do not display sadism to any remarkable extent. To put this too bluntly and probably easy-to-disprove: they are the least sadistic species we have encountered.)

[Happy Ent]

Aurang takes tremendous pride in all the people he killed/destroyed/raped.

He also calls himself "raper of thousands", not pleasurer. There is a difference there.

Valid points about rape. He clearly is not the least bit ashamed about rape. (Which is completely consistent with my point of view, of course.)

[Chun-Li]

Valid points about rape. He clearly is not the least bit ashamed about rape. (Which is completely consistent with my point of view, of course.)

No it's not, violent rape is a form of sadism, in particular Aurax's torture and rape of the wife fits exactly with the definition of sadistic rape. And you're ignoring the fact that he's also not the least bit ashamed about extinguishing nations and bleeding whole peoples white.

But regardless, they don't have to fit with the technical definition of sadism to be bad or evil. They are clearly not the least bit ashamed about inflicting pain, terror, murder, rape, burning cities, and extinguishing whole nations. You would be right of course if that were the definition of loving and having fun, but it's not even close.

[Castel]

Aurax (Aurang, who can tell?) is not just unashamed, he seems actively proud of his (mis) deeds. I can understand someone being fine with murdering entire nations to save their soul, but pseudo-bragging in one's head implies that he thinks it makes him a badass and is something he finds pleasing.

[Happy Ent]

But regardless, they don't have to fit with the technical definition of sadism to be bad or evil.

I completely agree. I’m nowhere trying to exonerate the Inchoroi. I just want to get away from our misconception that the Inchoroi are the Sranc. They are not. The Inchoroi are inconsiderate hedonists. The Sranc are violent sadist who are designed to be aroused by domination, pain, violation, and fear.

I won’t object to calling both of them evil, because I’m not very much invested in the semantics of “evil.” I found the EY short story interesting because it shows us how evil we are for not having deleted painful emotions such as guilt from our lives. (Since I’m at least superficially human, I don’t side with the superhappies or the babyeaters.)

I should write a story about the arboreal perspective on this. Legolas and Pippin visit Fangorn and have a debate about the morality of procreational strategies from the perspectives of an immortal, a bacon-lover, and a plant. Ideas are welcome.

[Happy Ent]

Aurax (Aurang, who can tell?)

Yes to this. We still don’t know if we’ve met both.

The Inchoroi that stepped in front of the teeming masses of Sranc was perfectly dressed, utterly perfectly dressed, in business casual more intimidating than any formality: crushing superiority without the appearance of effort. The face was the same way, overwhelmingly handsome without the excuse of makeup; the fashionable slit vest exposed pectoral muscles that seemed optimally sculpted without the bulk that comes of exercise

Then he spoke. “You have no words in your language to fathom me. I have been called Aurax, but that name is only a shadow. The translations of the tekne have become erratic. But you can call me… Big Fucking Edward.”

[Kalbear]

Could you be specific about the wall of torment again? I’ve tried to find the passage I remember, but can’t even find a mention of the Inchoroi. I remember some Bashrag and Mekki.

You may be right about the Bashrag instead of the inchies. I remembered it one way but it could be the other, and honestly the description of the Bashrag and the Inchie form is pretty similar.

Still haven't answered me about him specifically cutting the woman while he's fucking her and how that isn't sadistic.

Also, doesn't he mention something about torturing Inrau and showing him the agonies? Or is that still going far too much into the 'must directly and obviously get sexual pleasure from hurting someone' thing you seem to be going for?

[Happy Ent]

Still haven't answered me about him specifically cutting the woman while he's fucking her and how that isn't sadistic.

I never read that as cutting her, possibly because I’m not a native speaker. (To me, trace means “follow,” not “cause”.)

But your reading is valid, and that would constitute sadism. As I said, because of the ambiguity, I’m willing to meet you halfway: that the Inchies are equally divided between inflicting pain and pleasure in their torture victims. Half as bad as humans, say.

Yes, the Synthese threatens to show Inrau the agonies. I find that unremarkable. Nothing in his demeanor shows that he’s particular eager to do that. He doesn’t lust for it.

[Goodbye World]

It seems that the sadism discussion has ended so if I may go back to the idea that Moenghus was actually sent by the Dunyain and not exiled. Could somebody tell me why the Dunyain sent Kellhus of all people to find and supposedly kill his father? Here is the traitor who has jeopardized our entire mission after all these years asking for his son, ("Such desecration, they determined, could no longer be tolerated.") and we're going to do exactly what he says!

They already knew where Moe was and Kellhus had no special means of communicating with him once he left Ishual (Moe did send some Cishaurim to guide Kellhus but they couldn't have known that he's going to do that). So why not send someone else? Why not send someone who is not the most likely person to join Moenghus?

[Happy Ent]

Why not send someone who is not the most likely person to join Moenghus?

They don’t care about whether or not they help Moënghus. They just want the messages to stop. The highest-probability action to achieve that goal is to do as he says.

(The Dunyain can’t know that Moënghus has no idea whether Kellhus was actually sent. I don’t think Moënghus would be able to find out, but Ishuäl does not know that.)

[unJon]

Yes, the Synthese threatens to show Inrau the agonies. I find that unremarkable. Nothing in his demeanor shows that hes particular eager to do that. He doesnt lust for it.

My recollection is that the Synthese offers to show him the agonies because Inrau "worships suffering." It's almost the opposite of the Inchie being eager. You can almost imagine the Inchie is disgusted to find someone that worships the opposite if pleasure, but what the hell if that's what gets the mandate off then the Inchie is willing to do it for him.

[Chun-Li]

They don’t care about whether or not they help Moënghus. They just want the messages to stop. The highest-probability action to achieve that goal is to do as he says.

I thought the reason they wanted him dead was because they found out that he was alive and outside of Ishual, not because of the messages themselves. How could they not care if Kellhus never returns or if he helps Moe when they don't know what Moe really wants to do?

[Chun-Li]

I wonder what happened between the time Kellhus left Ishual and Moe finding out that he was actually sent. I can imagine him sending more dreams, then he visits Ikurei Xerius as Mallahet hoping to see Kellhus with him, and when he doesn't he teleports to Ishual and destroys it. Of course he's been hiding and pulling the strings according to TTT ever since Kellhus killed the thing that was Moenghus.