Bakker 亀 Anarcane Turtles All the Way down

[lokisnow]

Of course it was a chisaurim transport spell. pre kellhus the scarlet spires could not conceive of meta cants so they deludr themselves and never know they are doing it. moe gets to initiate the first maneuver of the holy war and they have no clue theyve just witnessed a game changer of meta cants they just explain it sway. moenghus remains hidden because of their ignorance and their ability to fool themselves.

a reader who buys eleazarus explanation post finale of TTT is just sharing the diagetic delusion moenghus was counting on.

its all in the text. they walked through a door=spell of transport.

Next thread title: bakker: all i want for christmas is damnation.

[Sci-2]

It makes sense to me, in as much as it's trying to get a handle on it. Remember Bart Simpson saying 'Wouldn't hell be like a hottub - eventually you'd just get used to it?'.

They were trying to figure some way of managing this hell thing.

But the scumbags could barely emulate it.

But that would require torturing themselves rather than others.

Admittedly the part with "self and other" may indicate this is what they were doing, but I doubt anyone terrified of death would unnecessarily subject themselves to too much masochism.

[Hello World Alt]

You know, in writing this I have to wonder if Bakker's not suggesting that hedonism is the inevitable reaction to damnation or nihilism. I don't personally support the contention but it makes a sort of sense that if one cannot be more or less damned for future actions, then one might start trying to enjoy everything...

That might be true, but only if one believed that damnation is inevitable. The inevitable when there is a way out is quite different I suppose, it's the pursuit of that one solution without any regard to what the cost/expense is. In other words, all crimes become justified, and when all crimes are justified there is no such thing as morality or immorality.

So why did he cut her while raping her to extract information? Because: "Whatever". It occurred to him to do it so he did, and why shouldn't he?

[Sci-2]

From TTT, Khellus reflects on the Inchie mindset:

A soul that had snaked across all the world's ages, taking lover after lover, exulting in degradation, spilling seed across innumerable dead. The Nonmen of Ishoriol. The Norsirai of Trysë and Sauglish. Warring, endlessly warring, to forestall damnation...

A race with a hundred names for the vagaries of ejaculation, who had silenced all compassion, all pity, to better savour the reckless chorus of their lusts. Stalking, endlessly stalking, the world they would make their shrieking harem...

Shooting a load of cum on countless corpses and silencing all compassion and pity recalls the parties Shae and his buddies had with forcibly invited captives.

However, HE's ideas of the Inchies as the Fun Fun aliens does get some corroboration:

"You already know, don't you? I can feel the memory of you, the sweet ache of having hung from your bronze hook. Rutting is merely the way of things. Hunger. Appetite. Men gild. Men clothe. Men dance their blind pantomimes ... But it all comes to love in
the end.''

"Love is the Way ... And yet these little demons you call Gods decree otherwise? Dole out their rewards in proportion to our suffering? No." She paused before him, her slight form magnificent in the play of gloom and light. "I would save my soul.''

"She doesn't love you," she said, tugging her wrist free. "Not truly."

Fucking a corpse and loving your husband seem to be the same to the Inchie Brothers. No distinction between pure lust and romantic love, which would make sense given they've long ago rewired themselves to feel no compassion.

[Armitage]

You know, in writing this I have to wonder if Bakker's not suggesting that hedonism is the inevitable reaction to damnation or nihilism. I don't personally support the contention but it makes a sort of sense that if one cannot be more or less damned for future actions, then one might start trying to enjoy everything... but neither here nor there.

This is also the viewpoint of Ishuäl's Bardic Priest. From the Prologue to TDTCB:

One night the Bard caught the boy. He caressed first his cheek and then his thigh. “Forgive me,” he muttered over and over, but tears fell only from his blind eye. “There are no crimes,” he mumbled afterward, “when no one is left alive.”

What's interesting (and by "interesting," I mean "has me puzzled") is the reply of the proto-Dûnyain:

But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!”

The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.”

[Sci-2]

Hmmm, here's the Inchie response to Kellhus asking Aurang if he's willing to destroy three world:

"To save my soul, hmmm? So long as there are Men, there are crimes. So long as there are crimes, I am damned.

[Hello World Alt]

So the way to seal the world from the outside is to cleanse it of all crime?

[Sci-2]

So the way to seal the world from the outside is to cleanse it of all crime?

Hmmm, perhaps it's the commission of sin that anchors the world to the Outside....would fit with the creation of topos in areas of great atrocity.

Depopulating the world works because the amount of sin decreases. Of course the separation between Inward and Outside would have to be irreversible, otherwise the Inchies plans to turn the new godless world into a shrieking harem would just make a new topos.

[Kalbear]

Theory: everyone goes to the outside in the end. Damnation is simply a product of being held against your will by things with a better will than you and doing enough things to other sapient beings that make your soul attractive to those things.

If there aren't that many things out there that you can harm, you can't be attractive to those on the outside. There are simply not enough options to watch and experience your sin. Not enough eyes to judge.

In this way both peoples camps are right - that going to the outside and how the outside is moulded based on the denizens will are physical properties of the universe - but the suck that you experience out there is entirely willed and based on specific creatures and their desires, and those desires have been shaped by those who lived on earth before.

[Anatúrinbor]

Hmmm, perhaps it's the commission of sin that anchors the world to the Outside....would fit with the creation of topos in areas of great atrocity.

Depopulating the world works because the amount of sin decreases.

If it's true that crime or sin is what opens the world to the outside, then the idea that depopulating the world is the solution is only the Inchoroi's philosophy. The Dunyain on the other hand have the different view that crime exists so long as men are deceived. So how do you go about ending this deception that causes sin (and then damnation)? Perhaps it's by ending the circle of before and after? By producing the free soul? So the Dunyain and the Inchoroi are after the same end result, sealing the world from the outside by reducing sin, but they have different ways of going about it.

Theory: everyone goes to the outside in the end. Damnation is simply a product of being held against your will by things with a better will than you and doing enough things to other sapient beings that make your soul attractive to those things.

If there aren't that many things out there that you can harm, you can't be attractive to those on the outside. There are simply not enough options to watch and experience your sin. Not enough eyes to judge.

In this way both peoples camps are right - that going to the outside and how the outside is moulded based on the denizens will are physical properties of the universe - but the suck that you experience out there is entirely willed and based on specific creatures and their desires, and those desires have been shaped by those who lived on earth before.

Interesting... But perhaps both camps are half-right, you need to do both of those things to truly seal the world from the outside, which is why the Inchoroi failed on every other world that they've reduced the population of.

I wonder where Kellhus will take the consult once he joins and becomes their leader (assuming that he does). Perhaps he will unify the Dunyain and Inchoroi paths. There is the problem however, that the rest of the Dunyain are dead and the breeding program is over, so how is Kellhus going to produce/become the free soul? The Dunyain as we know are not foolish enough to think that they can break the circle of before and after in the span of a human lifetime, but what if Kellhus becomes immortal?

[Larry of the Lawn]

If it's true that crime or sin is what opens the world to the outside, then the idea that depopulating the world is the solution is only the Inchoroi's philosophy. The Dunyain on the other hand have the different view that crime exists so long as men are deceived. So how do you go about ending this deception that causes sin (and then damnation)? Perhaps it's by ending the circle of before and after? By producing the free soul? So the Dunyain and the Inchoroi are after the same end result, sealing the world from the outside by reducing sin, but they have different ways of going about it.

Interesting... But perhaps both camps are half-right, you need to do both of those things to truly seal the world from the outside, which is why the Inchoroi failed on every other world that they've reduced the population of.

I wonder where Kellhus will take the consult once he joins and becomes their leader (assuming that he does). Perhaps he will unify the Dunyain and Inchoroi paths. There is the problem however, that the rest of the Dunyain are dead and the breeding program is over, so how is Kellhus going to produce/become the free soul? The Dunyain as we know are not foolish enough to think that they can break the circle of before and after in the span of a human lifetime, but what if Kellhus becomes immortal?

Ishual's been destroyed, but we don't know that the Dunyain are dead.

[Armitage]

Ishual's been destroyed, but we don't know that the Dunyain are dead.

Wild speculation: the Consult destroyed Ishuäl, took the Dûnyain prisoner, and are strapping them ten at a time into Shaeönanra's flying disk; the resulting combination of ten Dûnyain brains processing together means Shae can now outmaneuver Kellhus.

[Anatúrinbor]

Ishual's been destroyed, but we don't know that the Dunyain are dead.

Yes, that part is only speculation.

Kellhus, I think, still believes in the Dunyain goal of producing a self-moving soul, but he doesn't want to be just another pawn in a breeding program, he wants to become that soul himself. And he thinks that he has figured out an alternative way of pursuing the Dunyain goal other than a breeding program. Through immortality (if the consult can give it to him) he can overcome the fact that it cannot be attained within the span of a single human lifetime. So the Dunyain and Ishual become no longer necessary - only a danger that might expose him.

Yeah, this is also wild speculation, but I like it :P

[Sci-2]

Theory: everyone goes to the outside in the end. Damnation is simply a product of being held against your will by things with a better will than you and doing enough things to other sapient beings that make your soul attractive to those things.

If there aren't that many things out there that you can harm, you can't be attractive to those on the outside. There are simply not enough options to watch and experience your sin. Not enough eyes to judge.

In this way both peoples camps are right - that going to the outside and how the outside is moulded based on the denizens will are physical properties of the universe - but the suck that you experience out there is entirely willed and based on specific creatures and their desires, and those desires have been shaped by those who lived on earth before.

If I understand this correctly, sin and virtue are akin to muscle mass or fat - it's something one accumulates on their soul. But the universe offers no inherent judgement, and if there were no Ciphrang in the Outside you soul would float around or dissolve into Oblivion (or re-unify with the Mind it was always a part of).

Sadly, the Ciphrang find sinful souls to [be] magically delicious so nom-nom-nom every single one they get. Possibly they do this with virtuous souls as well, but the flavor of those souls is different. So maybe sinful souls are good for eating, and virtuous souls good for the Ciphrang version of fucking?

Interesting. This suggests Ciphrang - and the Hundred as the Ciphrang at the top of the food chain - are interfering with the natural state of the universe where all souls return to the Source that is God. Recalls Francis mentioning the potentially Gnostic aspects of the Bakkerverse.

[Hello World Alt]

Yes, that part is only speculation.

Kellhus, I think, still believes in the Dunyain goal of producing a self-moving soul, but he doesn't want to be just another pawn in a breeding program, he wants to become that soul himself. And he thinks that he has figured out an alternative way of pursuing the Dunyain goal other than a breeding program. Through immortality (if the consult can give it to him) he can overcome the fact that it cannot be attained within the span of a single human lifetime. So the Dunyain and Ishual become no longer necessary - only a danger that might expose him.

Yeah, this is also wild speculation, but I like it :P

Nah, like I said earlier I think there is more to the Dunyain than we already know. I think they sent Moenghus out to find the consult and the subsequent sending of Kellhus to find Moe is also something that had been planned earlier. They can't be stupid enough to think that sending Kellhus to kill Moe is a good idea. This is all part of TTT which extends past Moe to the first apocalypse. In fact I don't think that Moe and Kellhus are even Anasurimbor. It's just a lie they told to get the Mandate schoolmen to teach them the Gnosis.

But why did they do all this? I have no idea.

What's interesting (and by "interesting," I mean "has me puzzled") is the reply of the proto-Dûnyain:

When he says "So long as men are deceived". The deception here is the idea that men think they have free will but all their acts are actually determined by what has come before?

[Wise Fool]

Ishual's been destroyed, but we don't know that the Dunyain are dead.

I thought at one point there was mention of how all Dunyain who remained behind committed mass suicide. To rid themselves of the impure taint of Mangy's dreams or whatever?

[Castel]

I thought at one point there was mention of how all Dunyain who remained behind committed mass suicide. To rid themselves of the impure taint of Mangy's dreams or whatever?

Only the tainted ones, Moe didn't contact everyone. Doing it then would be quite...illogical.

[Kalbear]

If I understand this correctly, sin and virtue are akin to muscle mass or fat - it's something one accumulates on their soul. But the universe offers no inherent judgement, and if there were no Ciphrang in the Outside you soul would float around or dissolve into Oblivion (or re-unify with the Mind it was always a part of).

Not exactly. The universe does judge - that's what the judging eye taps into. What it doesn't do is punish. What happens to you in the Outside is as much to do with who deigns to play with your soul as it does what you've done. You are damned due to your actions, but what happens when you are damned is very different depending on who you are. The marking of your soul from the sins you do (and what sins actually are) is a physical constant of the universe that cannot be modified. How those sins attract Outside entities and what those entities do with you is culturally specific - or rather, because many of those entities came from those cultures (or vice versa) their reaction to your sin is partially determined by what you thought it would be like.

For the Consult or the Inchies, my bet is that the way they're damned makes them befall very specific, horrible things. It could be that the Inverse Fire is real but not specific enough; it doesn't show the hell and torture for that person, it shows the hell for the inchies and them only. Doesn't make them wrong to resist it, but it does mean the Consult isn't going to suffer the same way (or was not before they jumped into the debauchery of the Inchoroi).

Ciphrang and gods and ancestors are not unnatural; they're simply parasitical to the system. Souls appear to have power and energy, and like all sources of energy in the natural world life springs up around it to consume it.

[Hello World Alt]

Doesn't make them wrong to resist it, but it does mean the Consult isn't going to suffer the same way (or was not before they jumped into the debauchery of the Inchoroi).

I'm puzzled by this idea that the Ichoroi are justified in resisting damnation through any means. I mean it's not like they were nice and good people and all of a sudden someone decides they are damned. Their situation is similar to someone who committed murder and then went on a killing spree to avoid execution.

[Sci-2]

I'm puzzled by this idea that the Ichoroi are justified in resisting damnation through any means. I mean it's not like they were nice and good people and all of a sudden someone decides they are damned. Their situation is similar to someone who committed murder and then went on a killing spree to avoid execution.

It's more like someone raised to be a child soldier and then told as an adult that their crimes would mean everlasting torment.

The text indicates Inchies, for all their subsequent evils, were genuinely wronged or unlucky depending on whether you believe the gods could've revealed themselves to these formerly materialist aliens.