The Mage, The Princess and The Queen

[Azhole Ahai]

One of the things I was looking forward to read about in The Princess and the Queen was the role the Citadel and it´s maesters had played in The Dance of the Dragons, given Marwyn´s comment to Sam in AFFC.

Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords? The world the citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.

However, I don´t think The Citadel played any significant role in the civil war (if they played any role whatsoever). Which dissapointed me and left me to wonder:

1)What " last time" was Marwyn talking about?

I asumed he was talking about this conflict in particular, because, it set a "before and after" in the history of the Targaryen Dynasty (I think it´s even mentioned in the book that the civil war began when the Targs were at their prime, tho I may be wrong).

2)At the end of the war there were still 3 or 4 dragons. Could this be Marwyn´s " last time"?

I think it´s entirely possible (and probable) that The Citadel would take advantage of the state the realm was left in, and the historic moment of weakness of the Royal House to strike and carry out their hidden agenda (if they had any) in order to rid the world of dragons/magic once and for all.

3)What kind of world is The Citadel building?

There have been little hints here and there that the maesters may be carrying out some sort of plan to shape the world acording to their point of view. However, I don´t see the order gain any significant amount of power, political influence, wealth or knowledge/wisdom throughout history. In my opinion they have performed the same role for centuries, so I don´t see them building anything (and if they are building something they´re in no hurry whatsoever).

4)Should we believe all that was written in The Princess and the Queen?

If The Citadel was in fact involved in the war or secretly conspired to initiate it or make the conflict escalate somehow. They wouldnt have recorded it, right? I think it´s not so crazy to think that some important details could have been left out of the story. Considering GRRM POV storytelling and the way the characters can become a little unreliable as narrators it wouln´t be the first time that the truth eluded us (not that he uses this narrative mode but when we are in "the flesh" of the characters we can only see events happening from their perspective instead of looking at the "bigger picture") and we´ve also learned that the official history of Westeros was written a lot of years after the recorded events ocurred and well, The Princess... was in fact written by a maester so... I´m just saying...

So there you have it .Please feel free to share your thoughts aboout the questions above as well as some questions/doubts in general you may have after reading The Princess and The Queen.

[slayer420]

I think you have to remember who was writing the info we got, It was after all wrote by a maester. He could have been downplaying there role in anything that happened. If you can do something like that, then its good to keep it from the people.

[Azhole Ahai]

I think you have to remember who was writing the info we got, It was after all wrote by one. He could have been downplaying there role in anything that happened. If you can do something like that, then its good to keep it from the people.

Agreed. However, I was hoping the story would shed some light on what´s really driving the order or, share some information that would lead us to theorize about what the maesters goals might be, as well as their methods to achieve such goals.

[Ser Lepus]

I think Marwyn means what happened afterwards. The last dragons were stunted and small, and eventually proved infertile. It has been suggested that the Maesters took the chance to poison the last few surviving dragons and end the species.

An interesting point is that the Targayrens of old didn't do a thing to hatch their eggs. They just carried them around and waited for them to hatch...unless the Maester who writes the account has no idea about dragon hatching, of course.

Also: A little black-haired brown girl that didn't seem to have any Targayren blood tamed Sheepstealer...Did she have some remote Targayren ancestry? Children of the Forest ancestry? Or maybe all that talk about the Targayren being special is bollocks and anybody can tame a dragon?

Also: It is possible to fight dragons. The trick is to kill the rider. And younger dragons (and sometimes older ones too) can be hurt and killed with normal weapons.

Also: Dragonflesh is NOT impervious to flame? But their blood is hot enought to melt steel! How can they not be entirely fireproof and live? :wacko:

Also...Lys, Myr and Tyrosh were an unified kingdom once! :eek:

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The situation at the beginning of tPatQ was quite strange. Viserys had named Rhaenyra as his heir, but the Small Council was packed with Aemon supporters. A civil war that inflicted major casualties on the dragon population was quite likely. That may have been the work of GM Orwyle, and what Marwyn was refering to. And yes, Gyldayn's text is part of a coverup IMO.

[Azhole Ahai]

Thank you Ser Lupus for joining in. You commented very interesting stuff that well... raised even more questions for me.

I think Marwyn means what happened afterwards. The last dragons were stunted and small, and eventually proved infertile.

You are absoluteley right on point, I think it was me who made the mistake to atribute the decadence (and eventual disappeareance) of the species to The Dance of the Dragons and was to eager to find out more about it. But yes you are probably right that The Citadel could have had a more prominent role with the following generations of dragons (the ones who´s skull were no longer than a dogs)

An interesting point is that the Targayrens of old didn't do a thing to hatch their eggs. They just carried them around and waited for them to hatch...unless the Maester who writes the account has no idea about dragon hatching, of course.

Yes, these guys were the dragonlords!! and for what we got from the story they didn´t even do anything special to hatch their eggs. So much for Dragon lore!! And you brought up another great point: If the maesters had a hand in the dragons disappeareance is understandable that they would not want to divulge the process to hatch dragons eggs. So the GM who wrote the story down probably didn´t know (probably some books are hidden in The Library and only a few can have access to them) or he didn´t want to tell so the knowledge would be lost for good.

Also: A little black-haired brown girl that didn't seem to have any Targayren blood tamed Sheepstealer...Did she have some remote Targayren ancestry? Children of the Forest ancestry? Or maybe all that talk about the Targayren being special is bollocks and anybody can tame a dragon?

Well, maybe the girl did have Targaryen ancestry, but didn´t have Valiryan/Targaryen features. And probably is not just the Targaryen blood that´s needed to ride a dragon, remember we don´t know where the dragons actually came from, some say from beyond Ashai and the islands of the Jade Sea, and also dragons were not Targaryen exclusive, before the doom more people were able to ride them. Maybe, the dragon will choose it´s rider thru some connection or something? (speculating obviously). And probably the Targs didn´t want anybody else to know that riding a dragon is not TargExclusive! They could have spread the tale to make people believe that and well, also because they had the greatest dragonlore knowledge and wouldn´t share it, and therefore, they were the only dragon riders.

Also: Dragonflesh is NOT impervious to flame? But their blood is hot enought to melt steel! How can they not be entirely fireproof and live?

Yep... beats the shit aoutta me bruh!!!! Probably their skin in sensitive to fire but their inner organs aren´t???? (WTF!! Am I saying...?)

P.S. Have you found out the name of your movie???

[Azhole Ahai]

The situation at the beginning of tPatQ was quite strange. Viserys had named Rhaenyra as his heir, but the Small Council was packed with Aemon supporters.

Are you saying the Grey sheep had a hand in the choosing of the small council so Aemon would have a better claim (more supporters)?

A civil war that inflicted major casualties on the dragon population was quite likely. That may have been the work of GM Orwyle, and what Marwyn was refering to. And yes, Gyldayn's text is part of a coverup IMO.

To what end? I mean, has anybody seen the power of The Citadel grow at all? or, Did they just want to get rid of the dragons? I understand there´s something suspicious abot the whole thing but, if The Maesters are planning something, why hasn´t that plan developed already? Perhaps is not a full scale conpiracy, but only a few have been involved, a group within a group (a sect of Extremist Maesters?! LOL!!!)

[Ser Lepus]

To what end? I mean, has anybody seen the power of The Citadel grow at all? or, Did they just want to get rid of the dragons? I understand there´s something suspicious abot the whole thing but, if The Maesters are planning something, why hasn´t that plan developed already? Perhaps is not a full scale conpiracy, but only a few have been involved, a group within a group (a sect of Extremist Maesters?! LOL!!!)

I don't think it's so much about the power of the Citadel as about the role of Science. The Maesters dislike magic, and want it to pass and let Science rule the world.

Well, maybe the girl did have Targaryen ancestry, but didn´t have Valiryan/Targaryen features. And probably is not just the Targaryen blood that´s needed to ride a dragon, remember we don´t know where the dragons actually came from, some say from beyond Ashai and the islands of the Jade Sea, and also dragons were not Targaryen exclusive, before the doom more people were able to ride them. Maybe, the dragon will choose it´s rider thru some connection or something? (speculating obviously). And probably the Targs didn´t want anybody else to know that riding a dragon is not TargExclusive! They could have spread the tale to make people believe that and well, also because they had the greatest dragonlore knowledge and wouldn´t share it, and therefore, they were the only dragon riders.

How long before somebody creates a crackpot theory about Illyrio being descended from Daemon and Nettles (remember, Daemon had friends in Pentos), his wife Serra being the last Blackfyre and FakeAegon the heir of both those bloodlines?

P.S. Have you found out the name of your movie???

Nope.

[A Duke]

Also: A little black-haired brown girl that didn't seem to have any Targayren blood tamed Sheepstealer...Did she have some remote Targayren ancestry? Children of the Forest ancestry? Or maybe all that talk about the Targayren being special is bollocks and anybody can tame a dragon?

Can we be sure she has no Targ/Valyrian blood though? She could easily have some through connections even she is not aware of.

Though brings into attention the matter what % of targ blood/DNA is required?

I mean many of the people the Targs have brought with them and the Valyrians already on the islands conquered would have some such blood, with the many generations since then huge numbers of ordinary people in Westeros and more specifically in DS and KL would have some such blood.

In any case this is not a binary question. Even if Trag blood is not required it could be helpful. In truth I believe it is not obligatory since the ancient people who tamed the dragons and built Valyria were probably not different from others.

Also: Dragonflesh is NOT impervious to flame? But their blood is hot enought to melt steel! How can they not be entirely fireproof and live? :wacko:

It's magic really, Dragons can not be scientifically analyzed, they defy a whole heap of physical laws. For example, the energy required to melt Harrenhal's stones is immense, where and how do they store it? Don't forget they have to be able to fly with it with ease as well.

Not to mention the armor which is supposed to be hard enough to stop scorpion bolts have extremely low heat conductivity, have extreme high heat resistance, yet be flexible enough to maneuver and light enough to fly?

for scale, the heaviest flying birds as far as we know weighted about 20 kg...

[Ser Lepus]

It's magic really, Dragons can not be scientifically analyzed, they defy a whole heap of physical laws. For example, the energy required to melt Harrenhal's stones is immense, where and how do they store it? Don't forget they have to be able to fly with it with ease as well.

Not to mention the armor which is supposed to be hard enough to stop scorpion bolts have extremely low heat conductivity, have extreme high heat resistance, yet be flexible enough to maneuver and light enough to fly?

for scale, the heaviest flying birds as far as we know weighted about 20 kg...

Most of those stuff you can ignore, so long as you don't bother doing the numbers; you can willingly ignore them. The fact that their flesh isn't fireproof, despite being full of blood hot enough to melt steel, is just too much to ignore.

If the hero of a film runs across a battlefield and dodges tens thousands of shots, that's bullshit, but you can choose to ignore it because you now, cinema, but if the hero gets his head blown, and his body keeps running wihout head, that's too much to ignore.

[A Duke]

Most of those stuff you can ignore, so long as you don't bother doing the numbers; you can willingly ignore them. The fact that their flesh isn't fireproof, despite being full of blood hot enough to melt steel, is just too much to ignore.

If the hero of a film runs across a battlefield and dodges tens thousands of shots, that's bullshit, but you can choose to ignore it because you now, cinema, but if the hero gets his head blown, and his body keeps running wihout head, that's too much to ignore.

It's a fair point, but if you choose not to do the numbers when they are ridiculous you can often find another unscientific solution.

There is no re-conciliating the guy without a head with reality, but you can easily imagine that the dragons' veins are made of a similar magical material that has an extremely high heat resistance and low heat conductivity (an oven-mitt on steroids, if you will).