Do you think Sansa is next in line to die?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

It was a significant first step for Sansa in realising the world isn't all peaches and cream.

These animals are magical beasts that were gifts meant for the Stark children. I think it will be a little more significant than she opened her eyes to what's happening around her.

[Dicer]

It was a significant first step for Sansa in realising the world isn't all peaches and cream.

In what way was it a significant first step? Sansa still continued to be naive and ignorant about the world around her. She blamed Arya but till date has not shown regret/remorse for her own role in that whole affair. She blamed Cersei and then later went running to her to spill Ned's plans. She learned nothing from Lady's death.

The significant first step for Sansa in realizing the world was not peaches and cream was seeing Ned lose his head.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I feel like its pretty obvious she will take up Robb's mantle as leader of Winterfell, as she now on a path to learning the Game.

I think given how often Sansa has felt trapped by people defining her by her claim to Winterfell, this type of ending would indeed be, bittersweet. However, I'm not clear how learning to play the game means she will be the heir of Winterfell considering the North is too far removed (in spirit and distance) from the game of court at King's Landing.

[Fey]

I'll give you a cookie if you can name a single way that Sansa is anything like Catelyn, other than having auburn hair.

This supposed 'similarity' gets brought up all the time, and it simply doesn't exist. Cat is not at all interested in romantic songs and ideals of chivalry, and she never has been: the whole backstory with LF shows this at every turn. Cat is practical, down-to-earth, not particularly interested in nice dresses, and happy to travel without a maid. She's motivated by duty and family concerns. Sansa is arguably becoming more like this, but Cat always was like this. She has more in common with Arya than she does Sansa.

Sansa actually has quite a bit in common with Robb: she's certainly as much a 'Stark' as he is. Arya is the one who's left her identity as a Stark behind, almost completely. So this notion that the death of Lady thematically shows that Sansa isn't a Stark any more is tremendously shaky stuff.

Really glad that you posted this. The talks about how Sansa and Cat are similar, when they only really think this simply because they both did things people strongly opposed, (and Sansa shares much more in common with Ned while Catelyn shares much more in common with Arya) always sets me off. :bang:

And I think Sansa will survive to the end. I think she's the least likely to die out of all the original POV characters.

[Shah]

I think given how often Sansa has felt trapped by people defining her by her claim to Winterfell, this type of ending would indeed be, bittersweet.

:agree:

I have always interpreted Sansa's yearning to be free of Kings Landing forever symbolized her lack of desire to ever be a Queen or anyone of note...other than a quiet, respectable lady to an honorable man.

[mormont]

Hmm, I guess that's true about Sansa not being like Cat. But how is she like Rob? She's still not very Stark-like.

Generally, when people say this, they are engaging in tautology - they are defining 'Stark-like' in a way that means 'unlike Sansa', so it's hardly a surprise that she's thought of as 'not Stark-like'!

This is not a criticism of people making the argument: it's just pointing out that the issue needs a little more thought. The question is, what does 'Stark-like' mean? Families in ASOIAF have characteristic physical traits, but do they really have characteristic personality traits? What distinctive character traits are actually shared by, say, Rickon, Arya, Robb, Ned, and Bran, but are not held by Sansa? And are any of those not shared by Cat, either?

Ned, for example, is a gentle man, and at heart I'd say Robb, Bran and Sansa are too - but Rickon and Arya aren't. Ned, Robb and Jon are certainly honourable, but are Arya, Rickon and Bran? How about honesty? Well, Arya's not scoring very high on that, and arguably not on loyalty either. So where are we? What Stark characteristic is Sansa lacking, that the loss of her wolf is supposed to point out to us? Before we can say if it's symbolic of her unStarkishness, we need a better definition of what Starkishness actually is.

We see with Arya that she consistently refuses to give up her identity as a Stark, so I don't think saying Arya ha left her identity behind is accurate.

Maybe not. But it's as justifiable as saying the same about Sansa. The snow castle scene is thematically at least as significant as Arya hiding Needle. Sansa certainly still has her attachment to Winterfell and the Stark name.

Now, it may be that the loss of Lady was meant to indicate that Sansa would be in danger of losing her Stark identity, and that has come to pass: hence the renaming of her chapters. That wouldn't surprise me. But the argument about how it's meant to suggest that she was never a 'real' Stark, or what have you, yeah, that's shaky.

[Sansa_Stark]

Generally, when people say this, they are engaging in tautology - they are defining 'Stark-like' in a way that means 'unlike Sansa', so it's hardly a surprise that she's thought of as 'not Stark-like'!This is not a criticism of people making the argument: it's just pointing out that the issue needs a little more thought. The question is, what does 'Stark-like' mean? Families in ASOIAF have characteristic physical traits, but do they really have characteristic personality traits? What distinctive character traits are actually shared by, say, Rickon, Arya, Robb, Ned, and Bran, but are not held by Sansa? And are any of those not shared by Cat, either?Ned, for example, is a gentle man, and at heart I'd say Robb, Bran and Sansa are too - but Rickon and Arya aren't. Ned, Robb and Jon are certainly honourable, but are Arya, Rickon and Bran? How about honesty? Well, Arya's not scoring very high on that, and arguably not on loyalty either. So where are we? What Stark characteristic is Sansa lacking, that the loss of her wolf is supposed to point out to us? Before we can say if it's symbolic of her unStarkishness, we need a better definition of what Starkishness actually is.Maybe not. But it's as justifiable as saying the same about Sansa. The snow castle scene is thematically at least as significant as Arya hiding Needle. Sansa certainly still has her attachment to Winterfell and the Stark name.Now, it may be that the loss of Lady was meant to indicate that Sansa would be in danger of losing her Stark identity, and that has come to pass: hence the renaming of her chapters. That wouldn't surprise me. But the argument about how it's meant to suggest that she was never a 'real' Stark, or what have you, yeah, that's shaky.

and her marriage to tyrion i think she is a lannister now

[mormont]

and her marriage to tyrion i think she is a lannister now

I'm highly sceptical that a farcical marriage, forced on her against her will, that was never consummated and lasted for a brief week or two changes her whole identity and overturns her entire family background. What argument is there for that? You might as well say Arya is Braavosi now.

[The Sleeper]

Generally, when people say this, they are engaging in tautology - they are defining 'Stark-like' in a way that means 'unlike Sansa', so it's hardly a surprise that she's thought of as 'not Stark-like'!

This is not a criticism of people making the argument: it's just pointing out that the issue needs a little more thought. The question is, what does 'Stark-like' mean? Families in ASOIAF have characteristic physical traits, but do they really have characteristic personality traits? What distinctive character traits are actually shared by, say, Rickon, Arya, Robb, Ned, and Bran, but are not held by Sansa? And are any of those not shared by Cat, either?

Ned, for example, is a gentle man, and at heart I'd say Robb, Bran and Sansa are too - but Rickon and Arya aren't. Ned, Robb and Jon are certainly honourable, but are Arya, Rickon and Bran? How about honesty? Well, Arya's not scoring very high on that, and arguably not on loyalty either. So where are we? What Stark characteristic is Sansa lacking, that the loss of her wolf is supposed to point out to us? Before we can say if it's symbolic of her unStarkishness, we need a better definition of what Starkishness actually is.

Maybe not. But it's as justifiable as saying the same about Sansa. The snow castle scene is thematically at least as significant as Arya hiding Needle. Sansa certainly still has her attachment to Winterfell and the Stark name.

Now, it may be that the loss of Lady was meant to indicate that Sansa would be in danger of losing her Stark identity, and that has come to pass: hence the renaming of her chapters. That wouldn't surprise me. But the argument about how it's meant to suggest that she was never a 'real' Stark, or what have you, yeah, that's shaky.

There is a unifying trait among the Starks that is present in every single one from Brandon to Bran (Rickard and Rickon don't have much screentime to tell). When they feel something is right they won't back down heedless of danger or whatever anyone else might tell them. Brandon riding to the Red Keep for Lyanna, Lyanna defending Howland Reed and running form her arranged marriage, Ned resigning as Hand when Robert wanted Dany assasinated, Jon follows his own course, Robb went to war, executed Karstark and married Jeyne, Arya is the prime example of marching to the beat of her own drummer, Bran defending Hodor against the Freys, threatening the wildlings that held him captive, climbing etc. Cat may not be a Stark by blood, but she certainly married into the right family and even Sansa going over her father's head to Cersei fits in. She also demonstrates this when she occasioanlly slips with Joffrey and implores Margaery not to marry him, after she had gotten to know her a bit and like her.

Pride, heedlessness, resolve ... call it what you will, it is present in all of them.

[mormont]

There is a unifying trait among the Starks that is present in every single one from Brandon to Bran (Rickard and Rickon don't have much screentime to tell). When they feel something is right they won't back down heedless of danger or whatever anyone else might tell them. Brandon riding to the Red Keep for Lyanna, Lyanna defending Howland Reed and running form her arranged marriage, Ned resigning as Hand when Robert wanted Dany assasinated, Jon follows his own course, Robb went to war, executed Karstark and married Jeyne, Arya is the prime example of marching to the beat of her own drummer, Bran defending Hodor against the Freys, threatening the wildlings that held him captive, climbing etc. Cat may not be a Stark by blood, but she certainly married into the right family and even Sansa going over her father's head to Cersei fits in. She also demonstrates this when she occasioanlly slips with Joffrey and implores Margaery not to marry him, after she had gotten to know her a bit and like her.

Pride, heedlessness, resolve ... call it what you will, it is present in all of them.

At times. And at times, it isn't. Bran defends Hodor against the Freys... but he takes control of Hodor against his will, too, and he knows that's wrong. Ned resigned as Hand... but he also agreed to bribe the Gold Cloaks, knowing that was wrong. (Although, fair enough, he only needed to do that because he refused to seize Joffrey as Renly suggested, so it was perhaps a lesser evil.) Arya has been forced to march to other people's drums all along, from Yoren to the Hound to the Brotherhood and now the Kindly Man, and her sense of what's right and wrong is often vague.

What I'm saying is, to say that the Starks do the right thing whatever the cost is not quite true - they're largely* good people, which means they do their best, but they're just people, which means they often don't succeed.

*it's not really possible to say much about Rickon in this respect - he's not old enough to say much about his moral compass.

[Sansa_Stark]

I'm highly sceptical that a farcical marriage, forced on her against her will, that was never consummated and lasted for a brief week or two changes her whole identity and overturns her entire family background. What argument is there for that? You might as well say Arya is Braavosi now.

lasted for a brief week or two?

isnt she still technically married to him?

[Darksnider05]

lasted for a brief week or two?

isnt she still technically married to him?

Yes and wanted for possible regicide or something right?

[Sansa_Stark]

Yes and wanted for possible regicide or something right?

But still married???

Its the important part.

So she is still a Lannister imo.

[The Sleeper]

At times. And at times, it isn't. Bran defends Hodor against the Freys... but he takes control of Hodor against his will, too, and he knows that's wrong. Ned resigned as Hand... but he also agreed to bribe the Gold Cloaks, knowing that was wrong. (Although, fair enough, he only needed to do that because he refused to seize Joffrey as Renly suggested, so it was perhaps a lesser evil.) Arya has been forced to march to other people's drums all along, from Yoren to the Hound to the Brotherhood and now the Kindly Man, and her sense of what's right and wrong is often vague.

What I'm saying is, to say that the Starks do the right thing whatever the cost is not quite true - they're largely* good people, which means they do their best, but they're just people, which means they often don't succeed.

*it's not really possible to say much about Rickon in this respect - he's not old enough to say much about his moral compass.

I was not speaking about moral compass or if that they good in general no matter what. It doesn't even imply that their sense of right and wrong is faultless or even constant. I'm speaking about when they feel strongly about something they will follow through, regardless of consequences, social beliefs or even common sense. I spoke about resolve, pride and heedlessness, not righteousness.

ETA to make an animal analogy Martin is so fond off, I think of this trait as the kind of will wolves demonstrate when they chew off their own paws to get out of a snare. And they need it to get through the figurative winter they are going through and the winters of the land they come from. A strength that will keep someone going past hope or sense.

[Mladen]

And, yay, the "Sansa Lannister" trolling has started again...

As mormont politely said, there is no logic behind calling Sansa a Lannister, no one considers Sansa a Lannister, except of those fans who clearly wants to start a quarrel. She has never been called Lannister, she does not feel like a Lannister. I do understand that some people have a tough time to accept that, but alas, as someone said "there is a troll in every man" :). "Sansa Lannister" is pointless discussion, that beside clear intention of some people to cause troubles on the board, has no real textual evidence.

[Le Cygne]

But still married???

Its the important part.

So she is still a Lannister imo.

That is something neither she nor her family chose. A slave given another name is still their own name in their hearts.

[Sansa_Stark]

And, yay, the "Sansa Lannister" trolling has started again...

As mormont politely said, there is no logic behind calling Sansa a Lannister, no one considers Sansa a Lannister, except of those fans who clearly wants to start a quarrel. She has never been called Lannister, she does not feel like a Lannister. I do understand that some people have a tough time to accept that, but alas, as someone said "there is a troll in every man" :). "Sansa Lannister" is pointless discussion, that beside clear intention of some people to cause troubles on the board, has no real textual evidence.

"They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly"

"Lady Lannister, you mean?"

Its not trolling.

[Le Cygne]

"They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly"

What part of the word bitterly did you miss? She also said she "hates" Lannisters and Tyrion is "no friend" and Tyrion told her a "Lannister lie" and that it was a "mockery of a marriage" and on and on...

And if you want to trot out that she didn't want to say he was "kind" for not raping her to Lysa, I think you also missed the point.

[Sansa_Stark]

What part of the bitterly did you miss? She also said she "hates" Lannisters and Tyrion is "no friend" and Tyrion told her a "Lannister lie" and that it was a "mockery of a marriage" and on and on...

And if you want to trot out that she didn't want to say he was "kind" for not raping her to Lysa, I think you also missed the point.

She's bitter because she knows its true?

[Mladen]

What part of the word bitterly did you miss? She also said she "hates" Lannisters and Tyrion is "no friend" and Tyrion told her a "Lannister lie" and that it was a "mockery of a marriage" and on and on...

And if you want to trot out that she didn't want to say he was "kind" for not raping her to Lysa, I think you also missed the point.

My dear friend, don't feed the troll. It's pointless... No matter what you say, or how reasonable you are, or how good your arguments are and how right you are, it is pointless... Keep up the good work, and leave the "Sansa Lannister" debate to the troll flavor of the month...