[Book & Show Spoilers]The "Episode 9" Moment of Season 4 - Part 2

[rystine]

is the rade on castle black going to happen in this episode? shouldnt it happen much earlier?

also, i dont think the episode is going to be all battle. not enough happens. even in the books, stan's charge kind of happens off page and is over really quickly.

imo it has to be tywins death that is shocking. and it better be tyrion who kills the whore

A lot of people generally seem to think that the show will combine the Battle of Castle Black (the attack from the south) and the Battle of the Wall (the attack from the north) into one big battle and have the wildlings attack from both directions simultaneously.

Of course I don't know how much that is based off solid information or whether it's simply speculation. But the fact that the show runners have seemed to indicate that season 4 will have an even bigger battle that Blackwater points that way.

Personally I think it makes sense to have one episode with one BIG battle rather than a series of episodes with smaller ones. And obviously just because Stannis' charge happens off page in the books doesn't at all mean that it will happen off screen in the show.

And of course if they did it that way than the NW vs Wildlings could very easily take up an entire episode.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

A lot of people generally seem to think that the show will combine the Battle of Castle Black (the attack from the south) and the Battle of the Wall (the attack from the north) into one big battle and have the wildlings attack from both directions simultaneously.

Of course I don't know how much that is based off solid information or whether it's simply speculation. But the fact that the show runners have seemed to indicate that season 4 will have an even bigger battle that Blackwater points that way.

Personally I think it makes sense to have one episode with one BIG battle rather than a series of episodes with smaller ones. And obviously just because Stannis' charge happens off page in the books doesn't at all mean that it will happen off screen in the show.

And of course if they did it that way than the NW vs Wildlings could very easily take up an entire episode.

To quote the direct of this particular episode (see interview I posted in the op)

In a weird way, ‘Blackwater’, despite its scale, was kind of simpler than my fourth season episode. It was kind of linear in that we started on the ships and then we went to the beach landing, the battle on the beach and the castle assault. It was like moving the army from place to place, but the Castle Black episode has three different battles going on at the same time in different places.

My guess would be:

1.top of the wall

2. Castle Black

3. Beyond the Wall

[tf13]

It would be pretty neat to have the second to last scene of 4x10 to be Illyrio opening the wine barrel, look down into it and say "Lord Tyrion, welcome to Essos."

[Atropis the Elf]

It would be pretty neat to have the second to last scene of 4x10 to be Illyrio opening the wine barrel, look down into it and say "Lord Tyrion, welcome to Essos."

Lol. They will most likely leave Tyrion's future ambiguous.

[WeddinGuest]

If the show will merge all the wildling-NW battles into one giant battle in Ep9, then certainly, it could make for a greater spectacle than Blackwater, especially if Stannis coming into save the day is focused upon; seeing thousands of Stannis's men marching on the wildings while shouting his name would certainly make for a thrilling moment. However, then that gives us the problem of "then what will the NW, FF/wildlings, and Team Dragonstone be doing for the first 8 episodes"? I can see Stannis bumping into Asha on her way to the Dreadfort and capturing her earlier than in the books, so that could take up some time; I can also see more domestic moments with Shireen and Selyse. Or, we can cut away to Davos's quest and perhaps see the Manderlys in action, their importance was foreshadowed by the casting of Wendel Manderly in the RW. I can see Jon being sent to treat with Mance before the great battle, and being "saved" by Stannis, but making his way back to the Wall in some way (maybe LF lends him his time machine), and fighting in the battle himself, instead of just sitting around the wildling camp watching from the sidelines,

I can also see Mel showing up at the Wall a tad early as a scout, and perhaps having some interesting interactions with Jon. I can even think of a scenario in which Mel glamours herself to look like Ygritte while Ygritte is still out there, alive, instead of after her death as she does in the books. That would make for very interesting scenes, though perhaps a tad too outlandish, as the series really seems to be playing down the magic references so far. (I'd also actually prefer it if Rose Leslie makes a guest appearance in S5 or S6, the way Jason Momoa did in S2!)

As for whether Jon kills Ygritte; I'd be quite surprised if he DOESN'T kill Ygritte in the show, it certainly would be "devastating" for him if he does. I don't think he'd target her deliberately, but I do think his arrow will make its way to her chest during the battle. Note that they already made it clear that Ygritte shot Jon in S3, a detail that was left vague in the books. I also think establishing that he didn't kill her would make for some hamhanded exposition about arrow fletching that made sense in the books, but might be too awkward in the show. Perhaps the show will simply have some kind of mark carved into the arrow to designate the owner -- and if you really wanted to make things compact, have the eventual LC election use ballots with those marks, instead of tokens as they do in the books. But if they do that, then why would they have some random NW man's mark on the arrow, when they could just simplify the story and add dramatic punch by having it be Jon's arrow? It really doesn't change the story that much in the long run, the whole scene with her dying in his arms is quite cliche by GRRM standards already, and Jon feels responsible for her death anyway, whenever he dreams about Ygritte it is his arrow in her chest.

So, I really wouldn't be that surprised if this is what happens. It would also be similar to how the show has Loras himself wearing Renly's armor during the Blackwater battle, instead of his brother Garlan. Although GRRM has hinted that the showrunners have painted themselves into a corner by writing Garlan and Willas out of the story, I think that using Loras as the doppelganger would have been the correct decision even if his brothers had been cast, because they'd have been minor characters, similar to Kevan Lannister in S1; does anyone remember what Kevan looked like? I don't, though I do recall that he looked nothing like Charles Dance, though they were supposed to be brothers.

So, if minor-character Garlan had been revealed under Renly's helm, I think a lot of show-only fans would have been scratching their heads thinking "who in the world IS this guy again, I know I've seen him somewhere before, but why is he wearing Renly's armor"? Having Loras under the helm makes for a far more dramatic reveal, and since it's made quite obvious in the show that he and Renly were lovers, and it makes sense that he'd wear the armor while fighting Stannis's forces. Same with who kills Ygritte; Jon himself doing it is much more dramatic (and tragic) than Random NW Brother # 99 doing so.

[Annara Snow]

Would they already put some love story elements into the Baelish/Sansa interactions?

Already? Are you saying there are "love story elements" in Baelish/Sansa interactions in the books and/or you expect them to be on the show? Or are you referring to the "Craster/Gilly" type of "love story elements"? Ramsey/Theon has more "love story elements" than Baelish/Sansa. :rolleyes:

Of course there's also the option that not all of the episode will take place at the Wall, and that the shocking and devastating moments he's referring to are Shae's and Tywin's deaths.

I think it would be too much for one episode. Too many big events would diminish each other's importance. If they are showing all the battles at the Wall and beyond in episode 9, it should be all about the Wall. They should IMO save Tywin's death (and Shae's, if they are sticking to the book in that aspect) for the finale.

[Overlord of Skagos]

the only devastating scenarios i can imagine are

-Sam kills Ygritte [if he is still at the wall]

-They kill off Tormund and let those Thenn guys takeover his role in future

-We will be seeing 'Mance' burnt alive...thats some serious shocker for the show-only people.

-They decide to kill off Gilly.

[Queen of Whores]

Part of me is really worried that Aemon might get killed off, since he really doesn't do much in Feast, and it would add even more emotional value to the episode. I don't want this to happen, but I'm worried it might.

[Ser Tahu]

Part of me is really worried that Aemon might get killed off, since he really doesn't do much in Feast, and it would add even more emotional value to the episode. I don't want this to happen, but I'm worried it might.

I'm pretty sure that won't happen. Given that they have only mentioned Azor Ahai once, I think Aemon's senile ramblings to Sam would be an easy way to reintroduce and expand upon that prophecy.

[joachim]

I agree that it could be Jon who kills Ygritte. Before he climbs the ramparts, there could be a closeup on the arrows in his quiver, so that we clearly see the color of their fletchings. And if the battle takes place at night, he may not even know that he's aiming at her, or maybe he does and that just adds to the tragedy. I hate to say that the show will always be trying to capture that "Red Wedding Moment," but they'd create a lot of buzz if they end the episode with Ygritte cupping her hand on his cheek, and saying, "Oh. You know nothing, Jon Snow."

[Annara Snow]

the only devastating scenarios i can imagine are

-Sam kills Ygritte [if he is still at the wall]

-They kill off Tormund and let those Thenn guys takeover his role in future

-We will be seeing 'Mance' burnt alive...thats some serious shocker for the show-only people.

-They decide to kill off Gilly.

- A change that would make little sense and that I can't see them doing instead of the more likely choice of having Jon's arrow kill Ygritte to up the angst

- Would hardly be "devastating" to the audiences

- Doesn't make sense timeline-wise, since episode 9 is about the battles, not about their consequences. There have been all sorts of terrible things happening on the show, and the TV audiences are not that invested in Mance yet

- I don't see why they would do that. Especially since Ygritte is going to die. Sam and Gilly's story hasn't even developed yet.

Maybe they are referring to Ygritte's death when they say it's as "devastating as the RW". In any case, I think this is exaggeration and a bit of sensationalism. But I think it's wrong to promote season 4 that way; the people who found RW most devastating, because it signified the end of the Stark hopes, will more likely be more happy than not with the season in which Joffrey and Tywin die and the fall of the Lannisters begins, and Jon becomes the Lord Commander of the NW.

[abigail]

I personally found Ygritte's death and Shae's betrayal of Tyrion (though it makes sense) more devastating than the red wedding, but maybe this is because the RW was spoiled for me and the others weren't

Still, no matter how hard I think about it I can't be upset by it

[imaginepageant]

"As devastating as the Red Wedding," they say?

What was the most devastating part of the Red Wedding? Not that Catelyn's throat was slit. Not that Robb was betrayed and murdered. No, it was pregnant Talisa being stabbed repeatedly in the stomach. It was Robb crawling through his wife's blood to put a hand on her stomach, and the dead baby Eddard within. That, I believe, was the sole reason they even made her pregnant in the show at all—to make her death that much more devastating.

So, I think that not only will Jon's arrow be the one that kills Ygritte, but that she will be pregnant when she's killed.

[~No One~]

Apparently there are 3 fight scenes being filmed at once...this was what made filming challenging. My guess on the 3 battles are: Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!; the Hound & Arya at the inn; maybe something with Brienne.

I think the fight at CB with Ygritte will be ep 4. Official prediction. Otherwise what will Jon et al do for the 8 previous eps?

[Konradsmith]

^Neil Marshall said "three battles" but he meant going on at the Wall. Though he denied that the ep. was called "Castle Black", he still referred to it as the Castle Black episode. Hannah Murray who plays Gilly also said in a video interview that this season there is an episode which focuses on the Wall and that it was great to a part of it. That and Neil Marshall's past with Blackwater pretty much confirm it will all be at the wall.

The three simultaneous fights will be the battle of Castle Black, the siege aspect (them on top of the Wall contending with the horde below) and the Stannis Stannis cavalry moment.

I'd post links to confirm what I've said but I can't paste on aFoIaF.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Castle Black is the working title for that episode (official or unofficial, not sure they have real working titles as they probably just use the numbers on their documents). Bryan Cogman confirmed the episode will get another title, but for now Castle Black beats 4.09, no?

And yeah, I agree, the "three battles" are all at the wall. Not sure if or where they count the fight in the tunnel as seen in the preview clips?

[Bib Fortuna]

is the rade on castle black going to happen in this episode? shouldnt it happen much earlier?

also, i dont think the episode is going to be all battle. not enough happens. even in the books, stan's charge kind of happens off page and is over really quickly.

imo it has to be tywins death that is shocking. and it better be tyrion who kills the whore

Tywin and Shae will die in episode 10. It is known.

[Rashtibram]

Castle Black is the working title for that episode (official or unofficial, not sure they have real working titles as they probably just use the numbers on their documents). Bryan Cogman confirmed the episode will get another title, but for now Castle Black beats 4.09, no?

And yeah, I agree, the "three battles" are all at the wall. Not sure if or where they count the fight in the tunnel as seen in the preview clips?

Yes, Probably (about the tunnels). But Bryan Cogman specifically said that 'episode 9 is not called Castle Black.'

[Onna Lewyys]

Are we absolutely sure now that Ygritte's death is going to be in this episode?

[Konradsmith]

Well she isn't visible in any of the ep. 9 looking shots from the trailer, but the attack from the south will be in ep. 9. She and the fellows playing Styr and Tormund were in Belfast at the time they were shooting the battle near Belfast and Neil Marshall said in one of his interviews that his ep. was shot after most of the rest of the season was finished. I'm pretty sure she'll be in it. After all he said something "devastating" happens. I can't think of what else would fit that label.

BTW rickonkinginthenorth, just to toot my own horn, it was me who got Cogman to answer that on wicnet. I asked other shit but he didn't answer. That was all he gave me but it was enough at the time.