Joe Abercrombie: SPOILER THREAD for all of the First Law books

[Maithanet]

Just saying, I would absolutely buy a book where the author wrote his/her own endorsement on the cover.

Maybe Stanek can use this marketing trick.

Stephen Colbert did it for I Am America (and so can you!).

[Tears of Lys]

I like Bayaz. He is such a nice old man and one day you all will realise it and feel ashamed for saying so mean things about him.

It's funny, but right up to the end of The First Law series, I kept expecting Bayaz to rip off the villain mask and reveal himself as the kind, good Bayaz!

[saymyname]

Is this legit?

ebaysale

And are there any other maps for sale?

[saymyname]

Bayaz is the absolute epitome of lawful evil, surely. He creates hierarchy and order as long as it serves his purposes, demands obedience and crushes those who resist by any means necessary. He accepts no moral law beyond that which he imposes. 'Power makes all things right. That is my first law, and my last.'

Did Bayaz have any other motifs for getting involved in "The Heroes", other than testing the effects of gunpowder on the battlefield and looking out for his investment in the Union?

[Maithanet]

It's funny, but right up to the end of The First Law series, I kept expecting Bayaz to rip off the villain mask and reveal himself as the kind, good Bayaz!

I wouldn't go that far, but I kept expecting Bayaz to do something that would partially redeem him in the eyes of the audience, and he would end up as a very gray character, more along the lines of Logen or Glotka, rather than just an out and out villain.

[The BlackBear]

I find Bayaz preferable than Glokta. Bayaz at least seems to believe that what he's doing is the right thing. Glokta at times knows he's doing the wrong thing but does it anyway.

[Maithanet]

I find Bayaz preferable than Glokta. Bayaz at least seems to believe that what he's doing is the right thing. Glokta at times knows he's doing the wrong thing but does it anyway.

What difference does it make whether you believe you are doing the right thing? Deluding yourself into believing your crimes are "right" is a flaw, not a virtue.

Glokta is generally a pretty horrible guy, but he does at times go out of his way to help other people, even when it doesn't benefit him. We never see that from Bayaz.

[Wise Fool]

I find Bayaz preferable than Glokta. Bayaz at least seems to believe that what he's doing is the right thing. Glokta at times knows he's doing the wrong thing but does it anyway.

Glokta has a sense of humor and is likable, though.

He doesn't seem to do as much in the way of mass murder, which is a plus.

[The BlackBear]

What difference does it make whether you believe you are doing the right thing? Deluding yourself into believing your crimes are "right" is a flaw, not a virtue.

I don't think Bayaz is deluding himself at all. And I think it makes all the difference.

Glokta has a sense of humor and is likable, though.

He doesn't seem to do as much in the way of mass murder, which is a plus.

So humour forgives crimes? And I don't find Glokta very likeable.

And personally Mass Murder > Torture. I really hate torture.

[jurble]

I'm not sure giving thousands of people magical radiation poisoning is any less worse than torture.

[Wise Fool]

I don't think Bayaz is deluding himself at all. And I think it makes all the difference.

So humour forgives crimes? And I don't find Glokta very likeable.

And personally Mass Murder > Torture. I really hate torture.

For me as a reader, a sense of humor from a character can go a long way to me forgiving a lot of what would in the real world be completely unforgivable.

Not all the way, of course, but a long way.

Cosca falls into this category too, though probably not so much by Red Country.

Bayaz and Glokta both seem to have a sadistic part which enjoys hurting, killing, and/or torturing other people. But Bayaz has been doing this for so long, he's basically torturing the whole world.

[mormont]

He doesn't seem to do as much in the way of mass murder, which is a plus.

He has few qualms ordering men to die uselessly in numbers at the siege of Dagoska. And, once put in charge of the Union by Bayaz, we can assume he's done the same or worse again at Bayaz' order.

[paddington]

Never really saw Bayaz as sadistic. I don't think he cares enough about the normal people to be sadistic.

[jagilki]

Never really saw Bayaz as sadistic. I don't think he cares enough about the normal people to be sadistic.

Bingo.

Do you feel like a sadistic mass murderer when you stomp on a bunch of ants?

[mormont]

Bingo.

Do you feel like a sadistic mass murderer when you stomp on a bunch of ants?

I'm sure this is how Bayaz would like to think of himself - as far above the common herd as a man is above the ants, beyond good and evil, above petty sadism, and so forth - but if you watch what he does, he's cruel when there's no reason to be, beyond self-gratification. Look at how he deals with Finree in The Heroes, or with Calder, for that matter. That's not a man who's above it all: that's a man who still has an ego and a cruel streak and likes to settle scores. The fact that he might be kidding himself on doesn't make it any less true. He's not so far above the herd that he doesn't like to rub it in their faces.

[A Son of Blue Hills]

To me personally, Bayaz was good in intentions but evil in how he does what he does to complete his aims. We tend to think he is a good man in some way, as he does do it for the good of the world, but the way he does it is evil in tactic. But then again nearing the end, I think Bayaz sees himself as above everyone else, enough to hide the truth of what truly happened with the Maker and his daughter. When snippets of that came to light, I was thinking that Bayaz wanted people to hear and see only his version of events because the truth would make him look far from a good man or wizard.

Near the end I found myself liking Glokta more than Bayaz, because Glokta tried to help those he thought of as once being like him; hoping they did no end up the same way he did as a cripple and stuff. I have still to read Best Served Cold, Heroes and Red Country so I am hoping to see if Bayaz changes, or is still the same as he was in the First Law trilogy.

[buff daddy]

I'm sure this is how Bayaz would like to think of himself - as far above the common herd as a man is above the ants, beyond good and evil, above petty sadism, and so forth - but if you watch what he does, he's cruel when there's no reason to be, beyond self-gratification. Look at how he deals with Finree in The Heroes, or with Calder, for that matter. That's not a man who's above it all: that's a man who still has an ego and a cruel streak and likes to settle scores. The fact that he might be kidding himself on doesn't make it any less true. He's not so far above the herd that he doesn't like to rub it in their faces.

Yeah, I agree. He does seem to take delight and satisfaction in bossing people around, rubbing their faces in the mistakes they make, and reminding them of how superior he is to them and how little they matter in the grand scheme of things. It's one of the things that makes him such a fun character to read, he's just such a massive, unapolegetic, unrepentant dick-hole.

[Wise Fool]

He has few qualms ordering men to die uselessly in numbers at the siege of Dagoska. And, once put in charge of the Union by Bayaz, we can assume he's done the same or worse again at Bayaz' order.

But that's the thing with Glokta - he's always carrying out the orders of other people. Usually, much worse people - Sult, Bayaz. I don't think this is ever not the case.

Never really saw Bayaz as sadistic. I don't think he cares enough about the normal people to be sadistic.

Read that bit where Bayaz kicks the literal shit out of Jezal again.

He enjoys it way too much to be anything but sadistic.

[The BlackBear]

He needs to establish his authority over Jezal, and that certainly did the trick.

[Wise Fool]

He needs to establish his authority over Jezal, and that certainly did the trick.

Yes, but I'm not sure the gimp suit was needed. That was a bit overboard.