Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 In the UK the Prime Minister runs the country, but still needs a monarch to sign off everything to make laws etc. So even if Rhaegar is incapable of running the 7 kingdoms, and Tywin had another person standing in as hand, they would still need Rhaegar to sing off on everything. Its naive to think 1 man could rescue the King in the first place let alone suggest that it should be the crown prince, it was only desperation that lead to the attempt. Rhaegar competent or otherwise is the head of state while his father was locked up, just like Rob then Bran where Lords of Winterfell. Rhaegar is not noted because he obviously didnt do anything noteworthy, he did what was expected of him and stayed in KL keeping things running smoothly. Anything else valiant, foolish, cowardly, eccentric... would have been noted. This is Westeros, that is not how it works, Ned could make decisions without ever talking to Bobby. Like " making" Cat the agent of the king, or order a hunt on Gregor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Rhaegar had lands to rule, dragonstone and the narrow sea lands. He spent most his time in the mainlands. He could have had people to do that for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 He could have had people to do that for him. And that is what made him a bad ruler, Doran had a terrible leg and would have weakened the Martells face if he remained to rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfell Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Rhaegar had lands to rule, dragonstone and the narrow sea lands. He spent most his time in the mainlands. So did Jon Arryn, Renly and Stannis, all of whom, at the beginning of the series, have spent most of the last few years in KL. So did Tywin, who also spent many years in KL before Aerys de-Handed him. So did Ned, who was, again, willing to travel to the capital for an indefinite amount of time to help run the kingdom. Delegation does not make someone a poor ruler, nor does having other activities in one's life. It's a feudal monarchy and everyone, including the Crown Prince, has obligations to the King as well as to their own domains and vassals. The Crown Prince would probably be expected to take part in the running of the realm at large and so it would have been both unusual and borderline negligent for Rhaegar to have been entirely absent from the Small Council during his father's reign. And nowhere does it say that he shirked his duties in order to go to Summerhall or study his prophecies. It doesn't say otherwise either, but it's certainly making a huge leap beyond all the evidence that we do have to make that assumption. I mean the evidence for how good any given ruler is at actual governance is pretty sparse, how many rulers do we ever see actually ruling? Ned briefly as Hand (not ruling the North though unless you count executing Gared), Dany a few times in Slaver's Bay, Rodrick Cassell/maester Luwin as Robb's deputies, Jon/Jeor as LC, Tyrion as acting Hand which is mostly preparing a single city for a siege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 So did Jon Arryn, Renly and Stannis, all of whom, at the beginning of the series, have spent most of the last few years in KL. So did Tywin, who also spent many years in KL before Aerys de-Handed him. So did Ned, who was, again, willing to travel to the capital for an indefinite amount of time to help run the kingdom. Delegation does not make someone a poor ruler, nor does having other activities in one's life. It's a feudal monarchy and everyone, including the Crown Prince, has obligations to the King as well as to their own domains and vassals. The Crown Prince would probably be expected to take part in the running of the realm at large and so it would have been both unusual and borderline negligent for Rhaegar to have been entirely absent from the Small Council during his father's reign. And nowhere does it say that he shirked his duties in order to go to Summerhall or study his prophecies. It doesn't say otherwise either, but it's certainly making a huge leap beyond all the evidence that we do have to make that assumption. I mean the evidence for how good any given ruler is at actual governance is pretty sparse, how many rulers do we ever see actually ruling? Ned briefly as Hand (not ruling the North though unless you count executing Gared), Dany a few times in Slaver's Bay, Rodrick Cassell/maester Luwin as Robb's deputies, Jon/Jeor as LC, Tyrion as acting Hand which is mostly preparing a single city for a siege. Jon Arryn and Stannis spent most their time running the realm. Rhaegar is never noted for doing anything for the realm. Barry, Cersei, and Jaime never mentions him being apart of the small council. Instead they talk about tournays and him traveling to summerhall to write songs. If he held any form of care in the rule or care of Westeros, Barry would have mentioned it in his fishing for good tails of him to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Jon Arryn and Stannis spent most their time running the realm. Rhaegar is never noted for doing anything for the realm. Barry, Cersei, and Jaime never mentions him being apart of the small council. Instead they talk about tournays and him traveling to summerhall to write songs. If he held any form of care in the rule or care of Westeros, Barry would have mentioned it in his fishing for good tails of him to Dany. Rhaegar was never meant to do anything for the Realm until it was his time to be King. And even so, we don't know that. Maybe he studied laws, history, economics. He was bookish, we do know that. Saying "he didn't do anything" it's like accusing a guy to not help his father to run the family business while he's in college just because he likes to goes to the beach on sundays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Rhaegar was never meant to do anything for the Realm until it was his time to be King. And even so, we don't know that. Maybe he studied laws, history, economics. He was bookish, we do know that. Saying "he didn't do anything" it's like accusing a guy to not help his father to run the family business while he's in college just because he likes to goes to the beach on sundays. Yeah, he was meant to rule the Narrow Sea lands. He had duties, he did not do them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Yeah, he was meant to rule the Narrow Sea lands. He had duties, he did not do them. Poster above just told you that not being there doesn't mean not ruling. It's only a small fishermen village there, and I guess Driftmark? House Velaryon rules that. Really, his family lived in KL, he didn't need to do anything in DS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Poster above just told you that not being there doesn't mean not ruling. It's only a small fishermen village there, and I guess Driftmark? House Velaryon rules that. Really, his family lived in KL, he didn't need to do anything in DS. The Narrow Sea lands have towns, ports, and many small villages. Again, if he was not doing anything of importance in KL he should have been in DS governing his lands. edit: Not to mention DS had command of the Crackclaw point under the Celtigars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 The Narrow Sea lands have towns, ports, and many small villages. Again, if he was not doing anything of importance in KL he should have been in DS governing his lands. "should" why? Because you said so? Again, how do you know he didn't let people there doing it for him while he was in King's Landing with his father, the King, learning how to rule? Or because he realised his father was a maniac that one day would set himself and the whole city on fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 "should" why? Because you said so? Again, how do you know he didn't let people there doing it for him while he was in King's Landing with his father, the King, learning how to rule? Or because he realised his father was a maniac that one day would set himself and the whole city on fire? Yes he should, he didn't seat in the Council meetings, he traveled and made songs and fought Tourneys. He was lazy. Just having someone else do your job when you are capable of doing it is lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Eh? Rhaegar was only seventeen when the Defiance happened. Not yet to his majority. What exactly should he have been doing? Risking his own life (he was the heir) when there were much better qualified and more expendable Kingsguard to get Aerys out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Yes he should, he didn't seat in the Council meetings, he traveled and made songs and fought Tourneys. He was lazy. Just having someone else do your job when you are capable of doing it is lazy. Robert, is that you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Eh? Rhaegar was only seventeen when the Defiance happened. Not yet to his majority. What exactly should he have been doing? Risking his own life (he was the heir) when there were much better qualified and more expendable Kingsguard to get Aerys out? Taken command of the siege force because knowing Tywin, the assault was completely be OD if he and Papa was in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Robert, is that you? He was Henry the Young king of this tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Taken command of the siege force because knowing Tywin, the assault was completely be OD if he and Papa was in charge. I don't have any idea what you're suggesting here. Why should Rhaegar command the siege forces when the King's Hand, an experienced and effective commander, was already in charge? How would that improve matters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I don't have any idea what you're suggesting here. Why should Rhaegar command the siege forces when the King's Hand, an experienced and effective commander, was already in charge? How would that improve matters? Because the Hand is known to be extra in his assaults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Because the Hand is known to be extra in his assaults. I think you left out a word there. "Extra" what exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I think you left out a word there. "Extra" what exactly? An extra murderous fuck, who is over the top in assaults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 An extra murderous fuck, who is over the top in assaults. I don't think that's an accurate description of Tywin in the field at all. If it were, he'd have attacked Duskendale right off and Aerys would have been killed. His destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks was no impulsive act -- Tywin knew exactly what he was doing and was effect he intended his actions to have. Tywin is not "over the top" -- he is just very, very, very thorough. (Gregor is over the top. And Tywin disapproves strongly.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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