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What was Rhaegar doing during Defiance of Duskendale?


Mithras

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The DoD happened after the Tourney at Lannisport. Aerys never left Kingslanding after the DoD until Varys convinced him he needed to travel to the Tourney at Harrenhal. Rhaegar was going to negotiate with the High Lords to support the removal of the Mad King. It's all in the wiki.



Ah, that would explain it. Never trust the wiki on dates, imo. For instance, If we base the year of Tourney at Lannisport on Rhaegar and Cersei ages then we must narrow that event to either 276 (after they have turned 17 and 12 respectively) OR 277 (before they turn 18 and 13.) Yet the wiki states categorically it takes place in 276. Could be, might not be. Information that would eliminate the year 277 as a possibility is never referenced. The wiki if full of these type of assumptions.



Even there your citation does not say the Tourney at Lannisport takes place before the DoD. Instead it speaks of "Around 276" with nothing to say how it reaches that conclusion. Where is that citation? Let us assume that the "long years" reference is just to the five years or so between Lannisport and Harrenhal, how does that mean Duskendale comes after Lannisport? Or we can interpret the phrase "long years" to mean that Aerys grew ever more unstable and reclusive after Duskendale culminating in the five years between Lannisport and Harrenhal when he stayed in the Red Keep. I don't think we can make a determination based on the information we have, and my guess is that Duskendale predates 276 by a number of years. Which would make Rhaegar much younger during the time period in question.



Edit: not changing my opinion about the wiki's reliability, but it might be right about this point of chronology. Looking over Ser Barristan's remarks about Duskendale in A Dance with Dragons shows him to think Aerys never left the Red Keep between his return from Duskendale to when he announced he was going to Harrenhal. If so, either Selmy is forgetting his trip to Lannisport or it takes place before Aerys's is held hostage in Duskendale. Compresses things a lot, but could well be true.










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Ah, that would explain it. Never trust the wiki on dates, imo. For instance, If we base the year of Tourney at Lannisport on Rhaegar and Cersei ages then we must narrow that event to either 276 (after they have turned 17 and 12 respectively) OR 277 (before they turn 18 and 13.) Yet the wiki states categorically it takes place in 276. Could be, might not be. Information that would eliminate the year 277 as a possibility is never referenced. The wiki if full of these type of assumptions.

Even there your citation does not say the Tourney at Lannisport takes place before the DoD. Instead it speaks of "Around 276" with nothing to say how it reaches that conclusion. Where is that citation? Let us assume that the "long years" reference is just to the five years or so between Lannisport and Harrenhal, how does that mean Duskendale comes after Lannisport? Or we can interpret the phrase "long years" to mean that Aerys grew ever more unstable and reclusive after Duskendale culminating in the five years between Lannisport and Harrenhal when he stayed in the Red Keep. I don't think we can make a determination based on the information we have, and my guess is that Duskendale predates 276 by a number of years. Which would make Rhaegar much younger during the time period in question.

Edit: not changing my opinion about the wiki's reliability, but it might be right about this point of chronology. Looking over Ser Barristan's remarks about Duskendale in A Dance with Dragons shows him to think Aerys never left the Red Keep between his return from Duskendale to when he announced he was going to Harrenhal. If so, either Selmy is forgetting his trip to Lannisport or it takes place before Aerys's is held hostage in Duskendale. Compresses things a lot, but could well be true.

Let me cut this short for you. We know that the tourney at Lannisport is before DD as Aerys went to the Tourney at HH, and he hadn't left the Red Keep since DD.

Ergo, Lannisport happened before DD, or multiple POV characters AND Martin are wrong/lying. We also know that shit went south between Tywin and Aerys after Lannisport, which is part of the reason why Aerys went to DD with 1 KG and a bunch of men-at-arms.

I'll be honest, it's not even debatable that DD happened before Lannisport, to the point that I would equate it with Rhaegar or Syrio not being dead.

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Let me cut this short for you. We know that the tourney at Lannisport is before DD as Aerys went to the Tourney at HH, and he hadn't left the Red Keep since DD.

Ergo, Lannisport happened before DD, or multiple POV characters AND Martin are wrong/lying. We also know that shit went south between Tywin and Aerys after Lannisport, which is part of the reason why Aerys went to DD with 1 KG and a bunch of men-at-arms.

I'll be honest, it's not even debatable that DD happened before Lannisport, to the point that I would equate it with Rhaegar or Syrio not being dead.

Perhaps you didn't see my edit. Ser Barristan's words in A Dance with Dragons seems to indicate this is true, but characters are sometimes not reliable. If you have a reference to other characters and surely to Martin's own remarks I'd love to see it. The wiki doesn't show those references. I can and will research your assertions about Martin on my own, but any pointer in the direction would be helpful. Thanks in advance

I now see the wiki almost entirely bases this on Ser Barristan's words in A Dance with Dragons. I think this is most likely reliable, but would still love to see the other characters who say the same thing, and any Martin quote saying the same would cinch it.

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I guess Rhaegar hung out before the walls of Duskendale with Tywin and the army. What else do you think he did? He may not have been there from the beginning, but he certainly would have shown up there eventually, to see what's going to happen to his father...



He wasn't the Hand. He could not do anything. While Aerys was imprisoned, Tywin was effectively king in all but the name.


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I guess Rhaegar hung out before the walls of Duskendale with Tywin and the army. What else do you think he did? He may not have been there from the beginning, but he certainly would have shown up there eventually, to see what's going to happen to his father...

He wasn't the Hand. He could not do anything. While Aerys was imprisoned, Tywin was effectively king in all but the name.

Look at how Tywin delegated authority to Tywin while being Hand. And while there may still be a Hand, the Crown Prince does carry authority, so its hardly strange i Rhaegar does act with authority in King's Landing while Tywin and Aerys are away.

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Well, still, I'd imagine Rhaegar was with Tywin at Duskendale. The fate of his father should be more important that boring government stuff. I do not picture Rhaegar was a prince who was much - or at all - involved in the governance of the Realm (especially not after Duskendale).


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Ah, that would explain it. Never trust the wiki on dates, imo.

Yeah, I never rely on wiki dates. It is too easy for GRRM to use a POV's ignorance to misinform the reader. As a member of the KG, Barristan is a reliable source on Aerys movements between Duskendale and Harrenhal.

Cersei's remembers the Tourney at Lannisport how the crowd cheered for Tywin louder than Aerys and Rhaegar even louder than Tywin. Until more information is provided, I see this as ground zero where Aerys started distrusting Tywin and Rhaegar. This led to the folly of Aerys leading the assault on Duskendale instead of having Tywin handle the situation. Aerys wanted the people to cheer him, not Tywin.

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Yes he should, he didn't seat in the Council meetings, he traveled and made songs and fought Tourneys. He was lazy. Just having someone else do your job when you are capable of doing it is lazy.

You're saying that Rhaegar was absolutely responsible for all rule of Dragonstone and all the trappings as well. But we don't know this. Dragonstone is the seat of the Crown Prince (or Princess) but Rhaegar was the only heir to the throne at this time. He is also only 17, and still being taught about history, economics, and the like. There is zero evidence that Rhaegar even lived at Dragonstone -- ever. He was known to frequent Summerhall instead, another of the crown's estates. I would venture a guess to say that Rhaegar would not have taken residence at Dragonstone until he had a wife and family, but we know that never happened. Why? We can only guess. But saying that Rhaegar is lazy because he didn't choose to rule at a castle is just name-calling. Obviously, he had a choice and he chose to live in KL. I'm sure Aerys had castellan, maester, some forces, and others to take care of things at Dragonstone.

How? Crown Prince's aren't given command unless they take a seat on the SC or if named regent. Also if he did take command, Barry in his fishing expatiation for tales of Rhaegar he would have mentioned it. Ruling for a year beats going to ruins to write emo songs.

But you're contradicting yourself. You just said above that the Crown Prince is given the sole command of Dragonstone, right? And you also said that Dragonstone is Rhaegar's duty to take care of, and that he was essentially a bad person for not doing this. Be consistent, please.

Also, just an aside but we see in GOT that Cersei does not rule when Robert is indisposed and killed. Cersei asserts her rule but she can only do this through the heir to the throne.... I would imagine it would be the same in this situation. Aerys was gone for a considerable period of time, and they do need someone to sign the papers, so to speak. That would be Rhaegar, the only heir to the throne, since both the King and the Hand are not present in KL at all, and the Queen has absolutely no role in the governance of the realm unless she is a regent or on the small council.

Yeah, I never rely on wiki dates. It is too easy for GRRM to use a POV's ignorance to misinform the reader. As a member of the KG, Barristan is a reliable source on Aerys movements between Duskendale and Harrenhal.

Cersei's remembers the Tourney at Lannisport how the crowd cheered for Tywin louder than Aerys and Rhaegar even louder than Tywin. Until more information is provided, I see this as ground zero where Aerys started distrusting Tywin and Rhaegar. This led to the folly of Aerys leading the assault on Duskendale instead of having Tywin handle the situation. Aerys wanted the people to cheer him, not Tywin.

Very nice that you pointed this out, and I agree. Jealousy can cause crazy things to happen to good people.

I'm interested to know if this was before or after Rhaegar married Elia. Anybody know for sure? RR timelines make my head hurt.

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You're saying that Rhaegar was absolutely responsible for all rule of Dragonstone and all the trappings as well. But we don't know this. Dragonstone is the seat of the Crown Prince (or Princess) but Rhaegar was the only heir to the throne at this time. He is also only 17, and still being taught about history, economics, and the like. There is zero evidence that Rhaegar even lived at Dragonstone -- ever. He was known to frequent Summerhall instead, another of the crown's estates. I would venture a guess to say that Rhaegar would not have taken residence at Dragonstone until he had a wife and family, but we know that never happened. Why? We can only guess. But saying that Rhaegar is lazy because he didn't choose to rule at a castle is just name-calling. Obviously, he had a choice and he chose to live in KL. I'm sure Aerys had castellan, maester, some forces, and others to take care of things at Dragonstone.

But you're contradicting yourself. You just said above that the Crown Prince is given the sole command of Dragonstone, right? And you also said that Dragonstone is Rhaegar's duty to take care of, and that he was essentially a bad person for not doing this. Be consistent, please.

Also, just an aside but we see in GOT that Cersei does not rule when Robert is indisposed and killed. Cersei asserts her rule but she can only do this through the heir to the throne.... I would imagine it would be the same in this situation. Aerys was gone for a considerable period of time, and they do need someone to sign the papers, so to speak. That would be Rhaegar, the only heir to the throne, since both the King and the Hand are not present in KL at all, and the Queen has absolutely no role in the governance of the realm unless she is a regent or on the small council.

Yeah he is, he is the prince of dragonstone. The heir is the prince, when Aerys took the throne he became ruler of Dragonstone, Rhaegar came the age of actual governing the land at 16. He did have life and family. How is that not lazy? We call Robert lazy king for not ruling his kingdom, howis rhaegar not lazy for not ruling his land.

When he has no other duties, like seating in the small council meetings, as I said. Read please.

When Joffrey was king, she asserted no rule when Robert was dying, save to those she actually controlled. Joffrey had no say at all when hisfather was a way, and Cersei never claim power in his name.

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Just a gut feeling. But think about it that way:



If Rhaegar had been residing in the Red Keep, the tensions with Aerys would have either escalated much sooner (because Aerys had felt/imagined that Rhaegar tried to take power away from him/push him aside), or the closeness between father and son would have prevented Aerys from developing the paranoia that Rhaegar was trying to usurp the throne.



But if Rhaegar was absent, other people would had any chance to win the king's ear and trust, and Rhaegar could not have tried to reason with his father.



And if Rhaegar was present at Duskendale, and did not object against Tywin's idea to storm the city - before Barristan came up with his idea - then this could be a very good explanation as to why Aerys started to mistrust Rhaegar at all...



I don't think he lived on Dragonstone prior to his marriage, by the way. Rhaenyra moved to Dragonstone when she came of age and married Ser Laenor. Something similar could have happened after Rhaegar turned of age/married.


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I am a Targaryen fan and Rhaegar supporter -- I think that if there is any sweetness in the bitter ending of the series, the emo silver Targ prince will have played a role in it. After all, if Jon is important, and R+L=J, we know that Jon being here wasn't by accident. Rhaegar intended it. And if he's right, he's right. We'll see in the end.



However, I agree that Duskendale is a problem. Now, I can't imagine Rhaegar sat on his arse and did nothing for six months. Yes, I get that he played the harp and sang and was pretty, but he was also the crown prince of a 300 year old dynasty, and Egg's great-grandson.



I do like the conspiracy theory best out of everything that has been presented here. Yes, I get that Rhaegar seemed reluctant to depose his father during RR. But I think that may have been for any number of reasons. First, I'm not sure that Aerys' madness had gone full blown until after Duskendale. He may have been eccentric, with a cruel streak (he never treated Rhaella kindly), but full blown madness would develop later.



Second, I don't think it makes any sense to compare Rhaegar to Robb Stark. Robb's dad was Ned, the standard of honor in the series. Aerys has been painted as the opposite. Also, Ned's culture was that of the North, where even wee Bran needed to learn early how to dispense justice in the first chapter. We are assuming that Aerys apprenticed Rhaegar in the same way. If Rhaegar seems limited in his ability to act, it may have been because he had a father who'd snap his head off if he showed any hint of independence or defiance. I love my grandmother, but her personality was like this, and all her children are passive (and passive aggressive) as a result. I think that Rhaegar was probably a passable physical fighter by adulthood, but had to learn to play mind chess with his increasingly paranoid father.



Third, we don't know what Rhaegar and Rhaella's relationship was like from the books IIRC. However, I think it's not too much of a stretch to believe they may have been quite close. He is named for her, not his father or some famous dead Targ. Until Viserys came on the scene, Rhaegar was probably Rhaella's sole comfort. I could definitely see her counting the years until her silver boy was king, and she'd have relief from the nightmare of being her brother's wife. And if the Darklyns solved their problem, so much the better.



This is a topic for another thread, but I can't believe that people blame Rhaegar for not deposing his father sooner. Not only is there the kinslaying taboo (yes, I know that the Targs are a law to themselves, with their incest and polygamy), any violent overthrow of the king has the potential to destabilize the realm. We know some of the LPs weren't thrilled with the Targs in general and Aerys in particular. Had Rhaegar tried to overthrow his dad at age 17-18, there might have been a rebellion sooner.



I believe that Harrenhal was definitely a council to discuss deposing Aerys until the Mad King decided to show up. With discussions over at R+L=J speculating on the role of the Whents in the abduction/kidnapping/eloping scenario, I think that Harrenhal is key to perhaps even understanding why Rhaegar is missing from the LITTLE we know about Duskendale.



I emphasized "little" on purpose. We just don't have enough textual evidence to declare things one way or the other. This would be a good topic to ask Martin & generate an eventual SSM if he answers. I don't think it's key to the central plot, so he might just tell us. Or perhaps Ran, etc. would know.



Just because Rhaegar isn't a traditional ruler or lord in the macho sense, doesn't mean he was lazy, a coward, incompetent, etc. Just as there are all kinds of ways to be a woman even in Westeros, from Brienne to Sansa, there are also different ways of being a man. Rhaegar wasn't perfect and f*cked up the Lyanna and RR situations terribly, but he is judged on speculation covered with a veneer of facts. And what's gilded isn't golden.


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  • 2 weeks later...

Cersei's remembers the Tourney at Lannisport how the crowd cheered for Tywin louder than Aerys and Rhaegar even louder than Tywin. Until more information is provided, I see this as ground zero where Aerys started distrusting Tywin and Rhaegar. This led to the folly of Aerys leading the assault on Duskendale instead of having Tywin handle the situation. Aerys wanted the people to cheer him, not Tywin.

THIS is a really great catch. From the little we've been told about him, Aerys has always struck me as a man driven mainly by his insecurities. I would imagine seeing they were both more popular than he was another reason he rejected the match with Cersei. Tywin and Rhaegar joining forces via marriage would really steal his thunder!

And if Rhaegar was present at Duskendale, and did not object against Tywin's idea to storm the city - before Barristan came up with his idea - then this could be a very good explanation as to why Aerys started to mistrust Rhaegar at all...

That is an interesting idea. I've always found it more than coincidental too that DD happened relatively soon after Aerys rejected Cersei. In his later paranoia, I could see Aerys viewing the whole thing as a botched conspiracy between the two with Rhaegar agreeing to marry Cersei in exchange for Tywin's help in getting rid of his father.

I am a Targaryen fan and Rhaegar supporter -- I think that if there is any sweetness in the bitter ending of the series, the emo silver Targ prince will have played a role in it. After all, if Jon is important, and R+L=J, we know that Jon being here wasn't by accident. Rhaegar intended it. And if he's right, he's right. We'll see in the end.

However, I agree that Duskendale is a problem. Now, I can't imagine Rhaegar sat on his arse and did nothing for six months. Yes, I get that he played the harp and sang and was pretty, but he was also the crown prince of a 300 year old dynasty, and Egg's great-grandson.

I do like the conspiracy theory best out of everything that has been presented here. Yes, I get that Rhaegar seemed reluctant to depose his father during RR. But I think that may have been for any number of reasons. First, I'm not sure that Aerys' madness had gone full blown until after Duskendale. He may have been eccentric, with a cruel streak (he never treated Rhaella kindly), but full blown madness would develop later.

Second, I don't think it makes any sense to compare Rhaegar to Robb Stark. Robb's dad was Ned, the standard of honor in the series. Aerys has been painted as the opposite. Also, Ned's culture was that of the North, where even wee Bran needed to learn early how to dispense justice in the first chapter. We are assuming that Aerys apprenticed Rhaegar in the same way. If Rhaegar seems limited in his ability to act, it may have been because he had a father who'd snap his head off if he showed any hint of independence or defiance. I love my grandmother, but her personality was like this, and all her children are passive (and passive aggressive) as a result. I think that Rhaegar was probably a passable physical fighter by adulthood, but had to learn to play mind chess with his increasingly paranoid father.

Third, we don't know what Rhaegar and Rhaella's relationship was like from the books IIRC. However, I think it's not too much of a stretch to believe they may have been quite close. He is named for her, not his father or some famous dead Targ. Until Viserys came on the scene, Rhaegar was probably Rhaella's sole comfort. I could definitely see her counting the years until her silver boy was king, and she'd have relief from the nightmare of being her brother's wife. And if the Darklyns solved their problem, so much the better.

This is a topic for another thread, but I can't believe that people blame Rhaegar for not deposing his father sooner. Not only is there the kinslaying taboo (yes, I know that the Targs are a law to themselves, with their incest and polygamy), any violent overthrow of the king has the potential to destabilize the realm. We know some of the LPs weren't thrilled with the Targs in general and Aerys in particular. Had Rhaegar tried to overthrow his dad at age 17-18, there might have been a rebellion sooner.

I believe that Harrenhal was definitely a council to discuss deposing Aerys until the Mad King decided to show up. With discussions over at R+L=J speculating on the role of the Whents in the abduction/kidnapping/eloping scenario, I think that Harrenhal is key to perhaps even understanding why Rhaegar is missing from the LITTLE we know about Duskendale.

I emphasized "little" on purpose. We just don't have enough textual evidence to declare things one way or the other. This would be a good topic to ask Martin & generate an eventual SSM if he answers. I don't think it's key to the central plot, so he might just tell us. Or perhaps Ran, etc. would know.

I really liked a lot of your points, especially Rhaegar being limited by his father and having to navigate carefully around his moods from an early age.

I've always believed that the key to understanding the events leading up to and during RR lies in Aerys and Rhaegar's 'complex' relationship and I agree with you that Duskendale was a pivotal turning point for them. Learning more about it could definitely be helpful.

This is off topic a little, but I find Rhaella really interesting too and wish we knew more about her. I'd love to know more about Aerys, Rhaella, Tywin, Joanna and the Princess of Dorne, especially their shared youth at court together. I have a hunch that a lot of things went down between them then that rippled into later events and later generations. What was that line of Tyrion's? "It all goes back to our mothers...."

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