aceluby Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I just saw this in another thread, and it had me thinking... Most people (I think) believe this to mean that there is a fake dragon and that (f)Aegon isn't actually Aegon. I think that is a very valid option, but what strikes me about this statement is where the apostrophe is in this, as if the dragon belongs to the mummer. Who do we know to be a mummer? Varys. Who do we know to be working to have Aegon sit the IT? Varys. So instead of this being about a fake dragon like popular thought, what if by "mummer's dragon" it really means "Varys' dragon"? I won't say whether or not he's the real Aegon or some Blackfyre pretender, as a dragon is a dragon, just that I don't think this particular prophecy is as cut and dry as to whether or not he's fake, but more along the lines of who supports him, something we don't find out until the final pages of ADWD. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. It can be Varys's dragon and a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Quaithe´s warning is about a "mummer´s" dragon.. that could mean just a Vary´s Dragon. But, the HotU vision about the mummer´s dragon is included in the trio of "slayer of lies".. We should interpret that there is a big lie about Aegon that Dany needs to "slay". His real identity could be a lie, big enough to be included in the "slayer of lies" trio. Finally there is also Moqorro´s vision which explicitily states there is a Fake dragon. Taking into account all visions, i think there is a strong case in favour of (f)Aegon. Besides there are many passages that act as foreshadowing about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Doesn't Dany say something like the cloth dragon is there to give the actors something to fight. This describes fAegon probable fate pretty well. Also Tyrion has been doing a mummer's act recently and he got fAegon over to Westeros so the blue haired boy is the mummers dragon in a few different ways already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 Finally there is also Moqorro´s vision which explicitily states there is a Fake dragon. He also talks about an 'old' dragon, yet there aren't any old dragons... I've always thought that Aegon was fake, but now I'm not so sure that it's so cut and dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He also talks about an 'old' dragon, yet there aren't any old dragons... I've always thought that Aegon was fake, but now I'm not so sure that it's so cut and dry. Could be Bloodraven, Aemon...Still i think the best way to understand the vision is not with each different kind of dragon individually. But like this: Old, true, bright: Dany Young, false, dark: (f)Aegon. Dany is from house Targaryen, and old house that traces its origins to Old Valyria. (f)Aegon is from house Blackfyre, a young house, 100 years old give or take. Dany is true dragon, whilst (f)Aegon is fake, since he is lying about his identity. Dany is bright and (f)Aegon is dark, referring to the respective colors of the dragons in their banners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He also talks about an 'old' dragon, yet there aren't any old dragons... Those Moqorro's words have been echoing in my head ever since I read tPatQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Could be Bloodraven, Aemon...Still i think the best way to understand the vision is not with each different kind of dragon individually. But like this: Old, true, bright: Dany Young, false, dark: (f)Aegon. Dany is from house Targaryen, and old house that traces its origins to Old Valyria. (f)Aegon is from house Blackfyre, a young house, 100 years old give or take. Dany is true dragon, whilst (f)Aegon is fake, since he is lying about his identity. Dany is bright and (f)Aegon is dark, referring to the respective colors of the dragons in their banners. Dragons Old and Young Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Dragons Old and Young It could very well be like that. Still there aren´t much elements that support the Illyrio Blackfyre deviation from the Standard (f)Aegon theory. Neither about Varys being a brightflame descendant. Save the Lys “link”, and this vision, depending of the interpretation we like. The problem of the individual dragon interpretation is that some characters fit in several categories. Jon being the young dragon. Dany is supposed to be younger. Aegon close by. All three could be “young dragons”. ETA: the Varys blackfyre theory explains better Varys motivation towards helping his nephew than the Varys brightflame helping a way too distant cousin.. Like fourth cousin.. something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 It could very well be like that. Still there aren´t much elements that support the Illyrio Blackfyre deviation from the Standard (f)Aegon theory. Neither about Varys being a brightflame descendant. Save the Lys “link”, and this vision, depending of the interpretation we like. The problem of the individual dragon interpretation is that some characters fit in several categories. Jon being the young dragon. Dany is supposed to be younger. Aegon close by. All three could be “young dragons”. ETA: the Varys blackfyre theory explains better Varys motivation towards helping his nephew than the Varys brightflame helping a way too distant cousin.. Like fourth cousin.. something like that. I like to think that morbid obesity and obvious corrupt ways of Illyrio is a trait shared by Aegon the Unworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I like to think that morbid obesity and obvious corrupt ways of Illyrio is a trait shared by Aegon the Unworthy. i feel stupid, i never thought about it. It’s quite a parallelism since aegon IV was said to be handsome when he was young and ended up being fat and corrupt. Illyrio´s statue also shows a handsome younger illyrio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 No old dragons? Bloodraven is still involved in the game and he is over a hundred years old. I'm not even going to go into the many crackpot secret Targ possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. It can be Varys's dragon and a fake.This. It's a double entendre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Quaithe refers to fAegon as 'the mummer's dragons,' but, very importantly, there is an in-world thing called 'a mummer's dragon.' Dany first uses the phrase to describe what she sees in the House of the Undying- the cloth dragon on poles. So, in-world, 'mummer's dragons' are 'fake dragons.' It's an added bonus that there is a double meaning in that fAegon is also in some sense Varys's dragon and Varys claims to have once been a mummer, but the clearly established meaning of the term in-world is a fake dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Jaime Lannister Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Dany describes a Mummer's dragon to be a cloth dragon being puppeteed. I never understand why people take it to mean a fake dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Dany describes a Mummer's dragon to be a cloth dragon being puppeteed. I never understand why people take it to mean a fake dragon. because he is also included in the "slayer of lies" trio. Which means there is a huge lie about him, which dany has to "slay". Besides, there are other indications. Mainly the False dragon vision. I don´t think there is a good alternative explanation to the false dragon in Moqorro´s vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Dany describes a Mummer's dragon to be a cloth dragon being puppeteed. I never understand why people take it to mean a fake dragon. People take it to mean fake because it's fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 Quaithe refers to fAegon as 'the mummer's dragons,' but, very importantly, there is an in-world thing called 'a mummer's dragon.' Dany first uses the phrase to describe what she sees in the House of the Undying- the cloth dragon on poles. So, in-world, 'mummer's dragons' are 'fake dragons.' It's an added bonus that there is a double meaning in that fAegon is also in some sense Varys's dragon and Varys claims to have once been a mummer, but the clearly established meaning of the term in-world is a fake dragon. What I'm challenging is the in-world interpretation itself. These are riddles and I'm suggestiong Dany might be interpreting it wrong, which leads the reader down a certain path for a big reveal later on that is surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 What I'm challenging is the in-world interpretation itself. These are riddles and I'm suggestiong Dany might be interpreting it wrong, which leads the reader down a certain path for a big reveal later on that is surprising. But Dany isn't interpreting the prophecy in the HotU when she calls the cloth dragon a 'mummer's dragon', she's describing it. And 'a mummer's dragon' is a known and used term in-world (the Free Cities specifically) to describe a fake dragon used in mummer shows. My point is that this shows there is already a stable definition of 'mummer's dragons' in-world, so when it crops up again from Quaithe we have very good, if not infallible, reason to take it to mean that fAegon is a fake dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 There is a line in TP&TQ about other would be kings strutting about like mummers on a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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