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What do you think about Dany's last chapter in aDwD


Mrs.Grumpy

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Your first point is truly bizarre. No, obviously I'm not making 'the common mistake that reader knowledge equals character knowledge' in a post in which I explicitly point to a character's lack of knowledge of things that readers know.

Everyone is justified from their own point of view. If this is really the point you're trying to make, have at it. It's entirely semantic and pointless to argue that justified doesn't mean having correct and reasonable beliefs but instead means having opinions that derive from one's knowledge. The first definition is meaningful and useful, the second is essentially tautological.

You do make the common mistake. Dany doesn't know the truth (fact) and based on her own knowledge she is completely justified in hating on the Ned. However, if she learns the truth than she loses said justification.

It's not rocket science you know.

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Brandon should get a fair share of blame. Threatening the crown prince's life was beyond idiotic.

Brandon's idiocy was a main reason for the whole mess. Ned's actions were a main reason why the Targs lost the throne and most of them lost their lives. To say only one guy is to blame here is simplistic and plain wrong.

:stunned: :shocked: Brandon was under the impression that said crown prince had abducted his sister and was currently busy raping her. His actions were rash but it appeared that he had the law on his side.

Any half decent King would have appeased Brandon and promised him justice. If Aerys had responded like a sensible man he would have gotten Rhaegar and Lyanna to court, forced them to offer an explanation and placated the Starks.

Instead he horribly executed a father and a son. And then the mad idiot asked for the head of the younger brother and the fiance, who were completely innocent of any offense.

Aerys forced Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn to go to war. He was the cause for the fall of the dynasty and therefore all the blame should fall on his shoulders.

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You certainly can hate anyone you want. The question is, is this hatred justified? I think it would be useful to separate some of the cause and effect issues here.

The fall of the Targaryen dynasty is brought about by Aerys' madness, cruelty, and stupidity. Ned played a part in bringing down the dynasty, because members of his family had been murdered and his own life had been threatened. I think Ned was entirely justified in his part in this.

Dany was orphaned when her mother died in childbirth and forced into exile because Tywin Lannister murdered the royal family, Robert approved of it, and sent Stannis to seize Dragonstone, where Dany had fled. Reasonably believing her and Viserys' lives would have been lost if they returned to Westeros, they lived on the run. But since we know Ned opposed the killing of Aegon and Rhaenys, we can infer that he would also have opposed the killing of Viserys and Dany, so it's not his fault that this happened to them, but, instead, the fault of Tywin and Robert.

So in the case of Aerys' downfall, Ned is in the right. In the case of Dany's orphaning and exile, he's not to blame.

You've already asked me if I think it was justified. I said yes; you disagree. By this point it's just a matter of personal interpretation and, to put it simply, empathy.

I have never said Ned was directly responsible for Dany's impoverished exile (and he's certainly not directly responsible for the abuse she faced by Viserys). But his actions indirectly led to her suffering, just like Dany's actions in Astapor allowed King Cleon to come to power. And for that reason I think she is perfectly justified in resenting or hating him. However, I also believe that Dany should acknowledge the facts of the rebellion and not allow her personal feelings to interfere with politics.

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You do make the common mistake. Dany doesn't know the truth (fact) and based on her own knowledge she is completely justified in hating on the Ned. However, if she learns the truth than she loses said justification.

It's not rocket science you know.

You're just repeating yourself, and not in any way attempting to respond to the post you've quoted, in which I dispute the exact two points you've just made again, without alteration or addition.

You've already asked me if I think it was justified. I said yes; you disagree. By this point it's just a matter of personal interpretation and, to put it simply, empathy.

I have never said Ned was directly responsible for Dany's impoverished exile (and he's certainly not directly responsible for the abuse she faced by Viserys). But his actions indirectly led to her suffering, just like Dany's actions in Astapor allowed King Cleon to come to power. And for that reason I think she is perfectly justified in resenting or hating him. However, I also believe that Dany should acknowledge the facts of the rebellion and not allow her personal feelings to interfere with politics.

I was using the question rhetorically there, as an attempt to refocus the discussion on 'justified' in an objective sense, rather than an issue of what a person 'can' do. No, I don't think empathy is the issue here. I very much empathize with Dany, particularly early on when she's at her most vulnerable and exposed as a result of being under Viserys' power and living in exile. That doesn't mean I have to share all of her opinions, particularly when I know them to be based on bad information.

I think if we're going to allow that Dany is justified in resenting or hating anyone with indirect involvement in her suffering, we'd have to say that she's justified in resenting almost every lord in Westeros, those that deposed her father and those that failed to stop it. And I'd say if we stretch just resentment out to this point, there are probably dozens upon dozens upon dozens more directly and malignly involved than Ned, so we'd still have to call her resentment mismatched.

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I think both Dany and Jon's last chapters point them in the direction they will take in the next book. Dany will spend time with Drogon and go all fire and blood. Jon will spend time with/in Ghost and go wildling.

Hmmm very good observation. I look forward to the day that Jon encounters one of Dany's dragons. I imagine both it will get both of them moving, helping to give both of them purpose. I wonder if Dany flys away or if she will kill Jhaqo.

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The fall of the Targaryen dynasty is brought about by Aerys' madness, cruelty, and stupidity. Ned played a part in bringing down the dynasty, because members of his family had been murdered and his own life had been threatened. I think Ned was entirely justified in his part in this.

Dany was orphaned when her mother died in childbirth and forced into exile because Tywin Lannister murdered the royal family, Robert approved of it, and sent Stannis to seize Dragonstone, where Dany had fled. Reasonably believing her and Viserys' lives would have been lost if they returned to Westeros, they lived on the run. But since we know Ned opposed the killing of Aegon and Rhaenys, we can infer that he would also have opposed the killing of Viserys and Dany, so it's not his fault that this happened to them, but, instead, the fault of Tywin and Robert.

So in the case of Aerys' downfall, Ned is in the right. In the case of Dany's orphaning and exile, he's not to blame.

You can't separate Aerys's fall from power, on the one hand and the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon and Dany's exile on the other. The latter don't happen without the former. Ned's actions are a direct cause for Aerys's fall and everything that followed from it. Tywin made his move when Aerys had lost the war. That Ned was against the murders of Elia and her kids post factum doesn't mean his actions didn't lead to them and Dany's exile is certainly partly his fault.

I also don't think getting tens of thousands killed so you can avenge your brother and father and avoid having to go into exile is justified, but that's a different topic altogether.

:stunned: :shocked: Brandon was under the impression that said crown prince had abducted his sister and was currently busy raping her. His actions were rash but it appeared that he had the law on his side.

He openly threatened the crown prince with murder. No way that's lawful in a monarchy. Especially when Brandon had no more than hearsay to rely on for his accusations.

Aerys overreacted, sure. But really threatening the crown prince publicly is no small matter, especially when you are the heir of a major noble. It's very close to open rebellion.

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Brandon didn't think that Lyanna was kidnapped as far as I remember.

That is, there is no indication either way.

He'd be even more of a dumbass than I already think he is if he called for Rhaegar to "come out and die" while under the impression Lyanna went willingly. I tend to doubt that was the case. :dunno:

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You can't separate Aerys's fall from power, on the one hand and the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon and Dany's exile on the other. The latter don't happen without the former. Ned's actions are a direct cause for Aerys's fall and everything that followed from it. Tywin made his move when Aerys had lost the war. That Ned was against the murders of Elia and her kids post factum doesn't mean his actions didn't lead to them and Dany's exile is certainly partly his fault.

I also don't think getting tens of thousands killed so you can avenge your brother and father and avoid having to go into exile is justified, but that's a different topic altogether.

Hahaha, but it is justified to resent not being raised as the Princess in a regime led by a brutally despotic King? And it's not ok to depose said King, when he explictly threatens your life and is a clear and obvious threat to the lives of many people, but child hanging as practiced by Lady Stoneheart is A-OK because LS needs her vengeance and conducts sham trials to get it. I've seen you go fucking fire and brimstone on I can't even count how many people you think 'deserve' to die, but now it suits your Ned bashing to put the weight of a war on him and criticize him for it. Selig, you don't even try to make a coherent argument, just to be as disagreeable as possible.

And you're obviously unable to admit it when you've been caught dead-to-rights wrong, as is the case with your absurd claim that Ned didn't defy Robert.

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I think people are right about her becoming less merciful and a tad more selfish. She is going to think about the Iron Throne and the best way of getting there. I feel that she might start to do some things that are perhaps villainous. When Arianne thinks about Daenerys and talks about her witnessing her brother's death, she sees her as a possible danger. The Madness of Targaryen blood will show a lot more in WoW.


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"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

Dany may well save the world from the Others; but will come to Westeros with every bit of hatred, spite, and loathing for the Usurper's Dogs intact. And will make the world burn to regain the Iron Throne.

Either the surviving Starks, and her rivals, will perish, or she will. There's really no middle ground.

"And everywhere the dragons danced, the people died."

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She does NOT think Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. She thinks they were in love and he demonstrated his love by taking her by sword-point from her betrothal to Robert, just like she wanted to be taken away from Hizdahr from Daario. Dany's idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna is probably the closest to the truth of what actually happened.

Actually, I do interpret that passage as her thinking Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna at sword point. And, her thinking it was romantic.

Many Targaryens really don't believe that they're bound by the same laws as lesser mortals. TPATQ shows that some of them thought they were doing a favour to the Smallfolk by exercising the right to the first night.

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100? 1,000? Still not going to make it true no matter how many times you say it..

It's absolutely true and you know it.

We've been over this and several dictionaries have been cited many times.

Of course, some people are just incapable of admitting their favorites have flaws.

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It's absolutely true and you know it.

We've been over this and several dictionaries have been cited many times.

Of course, some people are just incapable of admitting their favorites have flaws.

Dany has many flaws it is one of the reasons why I love her as a character.

But she is not a usurper, she is a conqueror. There is a difference.

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And yet anytime we try to bring a flaw up, you act like its objectively wrong.

Not true at all. I have no problem discussing Dany's flaws. It is when people make absolutely ridiculous statements about her (which happens quite frequently) than yes I am going to refute them.

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Not true at all. I have no problem discussing Dany's flaws. It is when people make absolutely ridiculous statements about her (which happens quite frequently) than yes I am going to refute them.

Its not actually ridiculous and you just act like they are objectively wrong regardless.

Hence why there is no point arguing with you, what's plausible to others = ridiculous by your standards.

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