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What do you think about Dany's last chapter in aDwD


Mrs.Grumpy

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Yea you would, IMO, of course on a practical level you can't do much.

Hey, if you honestly think the guy who defrauded people of billions of dollars is not to blame but the people who brought him to justice are, agree to disagree. We're working from exceptionally divergent conceptions of right and wrong, and I don't expect to be able to come to common ground with you if that's the case.

No, you wouldn't be justified in hating the FBI because you know the truth about your dad. Dany on the other hand has no idea of the full extent of her fathers madness and the horrible things he has done. So, she's still justified in hating the one's she thinks have destroyed her family. If she get's the full facts of course then she loses said justification (apart from hating Tywin and co for killing the children of course)

lol, Like I said before, this is why Dany's judgement of Ned is flawed. The idea that she's justified because her facts are incorrect is a really bizarre line of reasoning to me. Yes, if it were the case that her facts were correct she would be justified in her opinion. But we know her facts are incorrect, which is precisely why people are saying her opinion is wrong, which it clearly is. I'll grant that there are good reasons Dany doesn't know the full story, having been brought up in exile by Viserys, but that doesn't mean we award her points for ignorance.

Barristan knows the truth though, Has she really not had the time to inquire about her father at all except for that one night when she banished Jorah?

:agree:

And this, her ignorance is becoming less excusable the more time she spends with a man who could offer her a wealth of information that she doesn't have.

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Brandon's the one who challenged the Crown Prince to a duel to the death though. The first act of aggression was his.

You can't just make off with the daughter of one of the most powerful families in Westeros. Especially when she is betrothed, and you are already married. That's not romantic, that's insane.
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Hey, if you honestly think the guy who defrauded people of billions of dollars is not to blame but the people who brought him to justice are, agree to disagree. We're working from exceptionally divergent conceptions of right and wrong, and I don't expect to be able to come to common ground with you if that's the case.

lol, Like I said before, this is why Dany's judgement of Ned is flawed. The idea that she's justified because her facts are incorrect is a really bizarre line of reasoning to me. Yes, if it were the case that her facts were correct she would be justified in her opinion. But we know her facts are incorrect, which is precisely why people are saying her opinion is wrong, which it clearly is. I'll grant that there are good reasons Dany doesn't know the full story, having been brought up in exile by Viserys, but that doesn't mean we award her points for ignorance.

Not really, might makes right, and always will. If you had an army you could conquor fhe USA and fix Madoff's crimes. Or to put another example, I can understand the USA separating from Britain, and I can understand the Brit considering them to be traitors that should be hanged.

I don't really think we have such divergent viewpoints, sure I hate Madoff, but I can understand his son not hating him, and taken to the logically extreme I can understand his son not liking the FBI.

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lol, Like I said before, this is why Dany's judgement of Ned is flawed. The idea that she's justified because her facts are incorrect is a really bizarre line of reasoning to me. Yes, if it were the case that her facts were correct she would be justified in her opinion. But we know her facts are incorrect, which is precisely why people are saying her opinion is wrong, which it clearly is. I'll grant that there are good reasons Dany doesn't know the full story, having been brought up in exile by Viserys, but that doesn't mean we award her points for ignorance.

And again the common mistake that reader knowledge equals character knowledge.

Let me repeat: the point is that it isn't Dany's fault that the "facts" provided to her all her life were wrong. Given her "knowledge" she is fully justified in hating Ned and others and thus her opinion from her PoV is 100% correct.

If someone were to provide her with the real facts (which Barristan and Tyrion will most likely do) than she would lose said justification because she has had access to the truth.

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Say my father was Bernie Madoff, would I be justified in hating the FBI and their lapdogs at the SEC for imprisoning my father and taking my family's wealth, or should I blame daddy-Bernie?

Sure, if the feds murdered your brother, his wife, your baby nephew and your 2 year old niece. Which would be the appropriate comparison to this case.

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Say my father was Bernie Madoff, would I be justified in hating the FBI and their lapdogs at the SEC for imprisoning my father and taking my family's wealth, or should I blame daddy-Bernie?

It depends. Did taking your father's wealth lead to you growing up as an orphan (who often spent prolonged periods living on the streets), with no guardian except a brother who abused you and sold you for the promise of a crown?

If that happened, I think you would definitely be justified in hating the FBI.

But why can't you blame "daddy-Bernie" in addition to hating the FBI for the long-term effect their imprisonment of your father had on you? It's not a clear-cut, one-answer situation.

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Sure, if the feds murdered your brother, his wife, your baby nephew and your 2 year old niece. Which would be the appropriate comparison to this case.

she has the right to hate Ned and the Starks from her perspective but from the Stark's perspective Dany's family was completely in the wrong. It is all a matter of perspective and I support the Starks over Dany all day ery day.
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Barristan knows the truth though, Has she really not had the time to inquire about her father at all except for that one night when she banished Jorah?




The feeling I got from Dany in ADWD was that her world was falling apart. She saw her dreams and certainties crumble and I think she started to sense that their was something iffy about her father.



And she ran away from that (If I look back, I'm lost), it's that coping mechanism that made her Campaign in Meereen bog down and loose momentum and it also stopped her from going to Barristan "Pandora's box" Selmy because he could knock one of her most important lifelines right out of her hands.



I do believe however that her time on the Sea of Dothrak has changed her mind though. I think that she'll return from it with the intention of confronting her families past and resuming in earnest with her quest (for the IT and the liberation of slaves).


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she has the right to hate Ned and the Starks from her perspective but from the Stark's perspective Dany's family was completely in the wrong. It is all a matter of perspective and I support the Starks over Dany all day ery day.

At the moment she has that right. After she's given the full facts though she loses the right to hate the Starks imo. She can still shit on the Lannisters though, since they murdered her niece and nephew. And on Robert because he tried to have her killed.

But she cant' hate the Starks, the Arryns, the Tully's, Stannis because their actions were completely justifiable in lights of Aerys' II crimes.

EDIT: I think that's where it all boils down to in the end:

There are two opinions about Dany's future. If you believe that she'll go mad queen than you expect her to learn the facts and still persevere in her ignorance and hate.

But if you (like me) believe that she'll return from her trip on the Dothraki Sea as a better and stronger person and ruler than you believe that she'll confront the ugly truth and sort some shit out.

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At the moment she has that right. After she's given the full facts though she loses the right to hate the Starks imo.

If not for Ned's actions she'd be an actual princess all her life and her family wouldn't be killed. IMO she's definitely justified in hating him and also Brandon and Lyanna who largely caused this mess by being hotheaded idiots.
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If not for Ned's actions she'd be an actual princess all her life and her family wouldn't be killed. IMO she's definitely justified in hating him and also Brandon and Lyanna who largely caused this mess by being hotheaded idiots.

.... you're joking right?

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If not for Ned's actions she'd be an actual princess all her life and her family wouldn't be killed. IMO she's definitely justified in hating him and also Brandon and Lyanna who largely caused this mess by being hotheaded idiots.

Her family were the aggressors, and caused the war. Then it was Lyanna, if you assume she willingly ran away with Rhaegar, and that he didn't keep her by force later. There's no way Brandon or Lyanna, or Ned and Bob caused the war though. Surely you must see that.

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Not really, might makes right, and always will. If you had an army you could conquor fhe USA and fix Madoff's crimes. Or to put another example, I can understand the USA separating from Britain, and I can understand the Brit considering them to be traitors that should be hanged.

I don't really think we have such divergent viewpoints, sure I hate Madoff, but I can understand his son not hating him, and taken to the logically extreme I can understand his son not liking the FBI.

I can assure you that we do have divergent viewpoints, as I don't buy into 'might makes right.' You're wobbling when you start talking about 'understanding' Madoff's son hating the FBI, something being understandable is not the same as its being justifiable.

And again the common mistake that reader knowledge equals character knowledge.

Let me repeat: the point is that it isn't Dany's fault that the "facts" provided to her all her life were wrong. Given her "knowledge" she is fully justified in hating Ned and others and thus her opinion from her PoV is 100% correct.

If someone were to provide her with the real facts (which Barristan and Tyrion will most likely do) than she would lose said justification because she has had access to the truth.

Your first point is truly bizarre. No, obviously I'm not making 'the common mistake that reader knowledge equals character knowledge' in a post in which I explicitly point to a character's lack of knowledge of things that readers know.

Everyone is justified from their own point of view. If this is really the point you're trying to make, have at it. It's entirely semantic and pointless to argue that justified doesn't mean having correct and reasonable beliefs but instead means having opinions that derive from one's knowledge. The first definition is meaningful and useful, the second is essentially tautological.

Sure, if the feds murdered your brother, his wife, your baby nephew and your 2 year old niece. Which would be the appropriate comparison to this case.

Which Ned did not do. And was not even at issue in the comparison I was making because PatrickStormborn agreed that Dany doesn't know that Ned wasn't actually involved in this but was saying she's still justified in resenting his part in Aerys' downfall.

Oh, and I think you may have missed a post a page or so back where I thoroughly refuted your argument that Ned never defied Robert, so you might want to go back and check on that and admit you were wrong.

It depends. Did taking your father's wealth lead to you growing up as an orphan (who often spent prolonged periods living on the streets), with no guardian except a brother who abused you and sold you for the promise of a crown?

If that happened, I think you would definitely be justified in hating the FBI.

But why can't you blame "daddy-Bernie" in addition to hating the FBI for the long-term effect their imprisonment of your father had on you? It's not a clear-cut, one-answer situation.

You certainly can hate anyone you want. The question is, is this hatred justified? I think it would be useful to separate some of the cause and effect issues here.

The fall of the Targaryen dynasty is brought about by Aerys' madness, cruelty, and stupidity. Ned played a part in bringing down the dynasty, because members of his family had been murdered and his own life had been threatened. I think Ned was entirely justified in his part in this.

Dany was orphaned when her mother died in childbirth and forced into exile because Tywin Lannister murdered the royal family, Robert approved of it, and sent Stannis to seize Dragonstone, where Dany had fled. Reasonably believing her and Viserys' lives would have been lost if they returned to Westeros, they lived on the run. But since we know Ned opposed the killing of Aegon and Rhaenys, we can infer that he would also have opposed the killing of Viserys and Dany, so it's not his fault that this happened to them, but, instead, the fault of Tywin and Robert.

So in the case of Aerys' downfall, Ned is in the right. In the case of Dany's orphaning and exile, he's not to blame.

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Not at all, why?

Because it's :bs:

You blame Ned and Brandon? Why? It doesn't make sense.

I can see why you would put a little bit of the blame on Lyanna, but Rhaegar is equally guilty.

But more importantly, when push comes to shove there is only one guy to blame here: AERYS "THE MAD KING" TARGARYEN

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Because it's :bs:

You blame Ned and Brandon? Why? It doesn't make sense.

I can see why you would put a little bit of the blame on Lyanna, but Rhaegar is equally guilty.

But more importantly, when push comes to shove there is only one guy to blame here: AERYS "THE MAD KING" TARGARYEN

Brandon's idiocy was a main reason for the whole mess. Ned's actions were a main reason why the Targs lost the throne and most of them lost their lives. To say only one guy is to blame here is simplistic and plain wrong.

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