What is 'plot armor'?

[E-Ro]

Adrenaline is a wonderful thing.

lmao, no. Physical abilities are a real thing. This is the same reason why when a 2 hundred pound jock goes to beat the shit out of a 130 pound kid no amount of adrenaline in the world is going to prevent the lighter kid from getting a beat down. The idea that adrenaline turns you into a superhuman is a fallacy. Besides, if you stop to think about it for five seconds you realize that since everyone produces adrenaline the benefits of it in a fight are negated, since both parties have it.

[White Ravens]

Something that people invented to bitch about characters they don't like, and why they aren't dead.

This is the most common definition of "plot armor" on this forum.

[Darryk]

lmao, no. Physical abilities are a real thing. This is the same reason why when a 2 hundred pound jock goes to beat the shit out of a 130 pound kid no amount of adrenaline in the world is going to prevent the lighter kid from getting a beat down. The idea that adrenaline turns you into a superhuman is a fallacy. Besides, if you stop to think about it for five seconds you realize that since everyone produces adrenaline the benefits of it in a fight are negated, since both parties have it.

The point was more that back pain may be a problem when you're climbing steps, but is less likely to be noticed when you're fighting for your life on a battlefield.

The whole adrenaline thing aside though, here's an interesting historical fact. For a long time, people believed that Shakespeare's portrayal of Richard III as hunchbacked was a complete fabrication. The reason they believed this is that Richard was described as "fighting valiantly" at the Battle of Bosworth Field, even by people who would have had no reason to paint him in a heroic light. How could someone with such a physical disability possibly wear armor and fight on a battlefield, let alone fight valiantly?

And yet, when they unearthed the remains of Richard III in 2011, the skeletal structure confirmed that he had suffered from scoliosis, a curvature of the spine, and therefore Shakespeare's portrayal had a grain of truth in it. Despite this severe physical impairment that would have caused him much discomfort in everyday activities, he was able to wear armor and fight effectively on the battlefield, though many people beforehand had insisted that such a thing was impossible.

So it's funny what people will claim is "impossible", without having any evidence or any expertise whatsoever on the subject.

By the way, "2 hundred pound jock goes to beat the shit out of a 130 pound kid", wtf did that come from? :blink:

[Pod The Impaler]

Technically, every character that is not dead yet has "plot armour". Why? Because the plot keeps them alive exactly as long as the author wants to - no more, no less.

This is especially true of major characters / protagonists. They have to have plot armour, because they are the main characters, and if they die like flies, then they are not really the main characters, are they ?
Rare is the story where the main characters are not, you know, actually there.

[The BlackBear]

It's this.

[E-Ro]

The point was more that back pain may be a problem when you're climbing steps, but is less likely to be noticed when you're fighting for your life on a battlefield.

Doesn't change the fact that tyrion is a small guy with very little training at arms fighting fully grown men. sure he might not feel his back hurting him, but adrenaline doesnt turn you into a killing machine.

The whole adrenaline thing aside though, here's an interesting historical fact. For a long time, people believed that Shakespeare's portrayal of Richard III as hunchbacked was a complete fabrication. The reason they believed this is that Richard was described as "fighting valiantly" at the Battle of Bosworth Field, even by people who would have had no reason to paint him in a heroic light. How could someone with such a physical disability possibly wear armor and fight on a battlefield, let alone fight valiantly?

And yet, when they unearthed the remains of Richard III in 2011, the skeletal structure confirmed that he had suffered from scoliosis, a curvature of the spine, and therefore Shakespeare's portrayal had a grain of truth in it. Despite this severe physical impairment that would have caused him much discomfort in everyday activities, he was able to wear armor and fight effectively on the battlefield, though many people beforehand had insisted that such a thing was impossible.

Ok, so lets get the logic we are using here. Since richard the third, surrounded by his best men in the best armor money can buy, is the same as tyrion, with little military training killing guys twice his size, when on his own. yeah, sorry but thats bullshit.

By the way, "2 hundred pound jock goes to beat the shit out of a 130 pound kid", wtf did that come from? :blink:

It was a perfectly valid example of smaller people losing fights. Why doesnt the adrenaline save them? Because everyone produces adrenaline. Its not an advantage that one person would have, and it doesnt by any means negate a size advantage, or an advantage of strength. ITs the same reason why athletes train and work out, so they can be bigger and better. They dont count on "lol he he the adrenaline will kick in and I will be amazing."

So yeah, your post in response to my post about tyrions fighting skills is nonsense. Adrenaline does not make you a warrior. Nor does it make you able to take on numerous people that are bigger, better equipped, and better trained then you.

[Table8]

The one with ultimate plot armor is Dany. If she dies in Essos, it makes her whole arc irrelevant. As long as she's on Essos, we can be sure that she survives anything coming her way, which destroys so much of the suspense GRRM has built by killing major characters left and right on Westeros. Tyrion also has the armor now.

[David Selig]

For me It's when the author keeps putting his main characters in dangerous situations then saves them in an implausible and/or contrived way.

For a more in-depth explanation and a lot of examples see here - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor .

[mankytoes]

Plot armor is when a dwarf that cant climb steps without back pain in one scene becomes a killing machine on the battlefield in another scene.

Surely plot armour is about staying alive, not killing others? Plot armour would be him surviving the battle, not killing anyone in it.

I think it's a fairly wanky concept. Like lets say at the last minute, Ned wasn't killed. Cersei shouted "no", Payne stopped, and it was decided they couldn't kill him on the steps of the sept. He was taken back to his cell, eventually freed by King Stannis or whatever. People would say "look at that plot armour, he was never going to kill the main character in the first book".

Basically, it's a retrospective concept which makes it often bullshit.

[Ours if the Fury]

This is the most common definition of "plot armor" on this forum.

Yes it is, and i don't think its exactly true...

The five people with the most plot armour are

• Bran Stark: Only because he is needed till the end…. and that means he will survive until the end.

Sansa Stark: Has nearly bitten the dust, before and has been in danger of recent events…

Dany: has had so much negative happen politically but has survived every battle and every assassination attempt…

Jon Snow: same as dany...

and tyrion… but i believe it is because he still has a major part to play.

[Darryk]

but adrenaline doesnt turn you into a killing machine.

Nor does being small mean you automatically suck on the battlefield.

Ok, so lets get the logic we are using here.

Logic such as "if one person is bigger then another person, the smaller person automatically loses the fight"?

Since richard the third, surrounded by his best men in the best armor money can buy, is the same as tyrion, with little military training killing guys twice his size, when on his own. yeah, sorry but thats bullshit.

Ricardians insisted for a long time that it was impossible for Richard III to even wear armor if he had such a disability, let alone fight.

But that's completely besides the point. The point is a person with a small, stooped stature and severe physical impairment was able to distinguish himself on the battlefield, and if it was just cause of "good armor and being surrounded by good men", it's unlikely the descriptions of the battle would have made specific mention of his fighting prowess, considering there would have been many lords on the field with good armor and good men.

It was a perfectly valid example of smaller people losing fights.

Yeah I got the whole "small people lose fights thing", you've been pretty clear on that. Just that the example of a high school jock beating up a smaller kid seemed quite random, almost as if traumatic memory from your high school years was manifesting itself (kidding) :P

They dont count on "lol he he the adrenaline will kick in and I will be amazing."

Again, the adrenaline was in your response to your mention of "back pains whilst climbing steps", as in, smaller problems become less noticeable, not an explanation for him becoming a "killing machine" (which is a complete exaggeration of what happens anyway)

So yeah, your post in response to my post about tyrions fighting skills is nonsense

The words "nonsense" and "bullshit" are getting thrown around a lot here, for someone whose argument basically amounts to "Tyrion is smaller than the other guys therefore he should get stomped"

[Djinn]

Yet, you must agree that a dwarf on horseback with a battleaxe would not have the reach to hit a enemy foot soldier in any efficient way, right? He's not only short of leg, but also short of arms. With a spear or even a longaxe, sure, but reach is still a decisive physical parameter. It's a ''drawing a greatsword from the back'' situation, it's just not possible. Just like the fully suplied 80.000 Tyrell soldiers.

[Darryk]

Yet, you must agree that a dwarf on horseback with a battleaxe would not have the reach to hit a enemy foot soldier in any efficient way, right? He's not only short of leg, but also short of arms. With a spear or even a longaxe, sure, but reach is still a decisive physical parameter. It's a ''drawing a greatsword from the back'' situation, it's just not possible. Just like the fully suplied 80.000 Tyrell soldiers.

No doubt there's a slightly absurd element to some of the things Tyrion does in the battle sequences, and it is somewhat difficult to picture him hacking and slashing his way through the melee.

Just that I don't find the idea of him managing to distinguish himself in battle so incredibly far-fetched, certainly not so much as to cry "plot armor", not that I think much of that term anyway. There are sure to be inconsistencies in logic here and there, but in a broad sense I think the concept works.

Maybe I'm just being more influenced by the show's depiction of his actions on the battlefield, which came across as more realistic. IE. showing heart and valor but still somewhat clumsy in his execution. In other words I don't recall him being a "killing machine" at any point, but my memory of the battle chapters might be hazy.

[Sansa_Stark]

Its how Tyrion and Arya keep surviving these contrived situations.

[Yukle]

Its how Tyrion and Arya keep surviving these contrived situations.

Hmm... Arya hasn't really been in that much danger, other than being lost. In fact, for a long time she was extremely safe since she was under the protection of the Hound and he is just about as good as body guards get. Most people held captive at Harrenhal weren't killed, so her escape isn't that unrealistic. Lots of the Night's Watch's escort she travelled with escaped, too.

In the House of Black and White she has received extraordinary protection. So I think that it's not really that far-fetched.

Tyrion, on the other hand, yeah... but I don't care because it makes the story interesting. If I wanted realism then I wouldn't be eagerly awaiting Dany's dragons being ridden. ;)

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Truth is, every character that is still alive, at some point, has suffered from a little help from the plot aka Plot Armor. Are we really supposed to believe a nine-year NOBLE girl could survive from sheer luck, friends and abilities she developed whilst living on a castle?

Not that Sansa's, or Bran's, or Dany's and Jon's situation is different. Dany is even the worst, if you think about it. Dany HAS TO SURVIVE, which means that no matter what happens in Meeren or in the entire Essos, if everybody and their mothers marches against her, she HAS to win. Otherwise, her storyline will become irrelevant and unecessary. She needs to land in Westeros, and she belongs there, plot-wise.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Tyrions uncanny ability to survive every battle andsurvive dangerous situations using only his wits.

Littlefinger always having the abilty to use a situation to his advantage. Nobody realizing that HE'S the reason the half of Westeros is at war.

Cersei's absurd plan to kill Robert going off without a hitch.

[complexphoenix]

Doesn't change the fact that tyrion is a small guy with very little training at arms fighting fully grown men. sure he might not feel his back hurting him, but adrenaline doesnt turn you into a killing machine.

Ok, so lets get the logic we are using here. Since richard the third, surrounded by his best men in the best armor money can buy, is the same as tyrion, with little military training killing guys twice his size, when on his own. yeah, sorry but thats bullshit.

It was a perfectly valid example of smaller people losing fights. Why doesnt the adrenaline save them? Because everyone produces adrenaline. Its not an advantage that one person would have, and it doesnt by any means negate a size advantage, or an advantage of strength. ITs the same reason why athletes train and work out, so they can be bigger and better. They dont count on "lol he he the adrenaline will kick in and I will be amazing."

So yeah, your post in response to my post about tyrions fighting skills is nonsense. Adrenaline does not make you a warrior. Nor does it make you able to take on numerous people that are bigger, better equipped, and better trained then you.

Where is it said that Tyrion didn't have training? It's standard practice for highborn boys to be trained in arms, and I would expect Tywin Lannister would want his son to receive the standard training in arms, even if he was a dwarf. At the Battle of the Green Fork Tyrion defeats a knight by killing his horse so that it falls on him, but mostly relies on Bronn to protect him; at the Battle of the Blackwater he is wearing the best armor money can buy and is protected by Mandon Moore, and then by Pod after Moore betrays him. I'll grant that Tyrion has been very lucky, but I don't think his battle performance is totally unrealistic. Some characters are hideously unlucky, some have middling luck, some have great luck. Nothing unrealistic about that.

[E-Ro]

Nor does being small mean you automatically suck on the battlefield.

It pretty much does though. A small person (like tyrion) is at a SEVERE disadvantage to everyone else. It’s just a simple fact that a larger heavier, person would have all the advantages and the smaller combatant would have to be hugely lucky to pull through.

Logic such as "if one person is bigger then another person, the smaller person automatically loses the fight"?

Not automatically no. It’s just more than likely. My original point was that tyrion surviving and excelling at battle is plot armor. Not only would everyone on the field be looking for him (he’s worth a hefty ransom) but he’s a distinctive figure that would be easy to find, and let’s face it, easy to take. Yet in battle, he kills men left and right. At the green fork his father makes a point of surrounding him with the most useless men he possibly can, yet not only does the left flank hold, but when tyrion gets separated from bronn he fights fully grown, fully armored, fully trained men, and wins. He kills exactly three people on the green fork. That’s a lot. Then at the blackwater he does just as well, riding men down like its nothing. The fact that he survives these battles when he’s in the thick of the fighting are plot armor. And the fact that he survives cannot be chalked up to adrenaline.

But that's completely besides the point. The point is a person with a small, stooped stature and severe physical impairment was able to distinguish himself on the battlefield, and if it was just cause of "good armor and being surrounded by good men", it's unlikely the descriptions of the battle would have made specific mention of his fighting prowess, considering there would have been many lords on the field with good armor and good men.

Yeah, he was a king, of course his abilities would be talked up. Either way im sure he didn’t manage to kill three guys on his own, that’s a damn impressive feat.

Yeah I got the whole "small people lose fights thing", you've been pretty clear on that. Just that the example of a high school jock beating up a smaller kid seemed quite random, almost as if traumatic memory from your high school years was manifesting itself (kidding) :P

Brah have you even seen my lats? I’m the jock in this example. (insert workout emoticon)

Again, the adrenaline was in your response to your mention of "back pains whilst climbing steps", as in, smaller problems become less noticeable, not an explanation for him becoming a "killing machine" (which is a complete exaggeration of what happens anyway)

But that is what happens, it’s not an exaggeration. Cutting down three men in single combat is extremely hard, and he does it without help. You can’t even count the amount of men he killed at the blackwater, but it was more than the green fork. And once again, that’s with a ton of people on the field looking for him, he’s a target that’s worth allot.

The words "nonsense" and "bullshit" are getting thrown around a lot here, for someone whose argument basically amounts to "Tyrion is smaller than the other guys therefore he should get stomped"

Yeah, that’s my argument, and it’s the truth. The fact that you can’t grasp that isn’t on me, it’s on you. Bigger people, have an advantage in combat. Period. The fact that tyrion kills multiple people that are bigger then him in battle and is not beaten to a pulp by them is plot armor.

To sum this all up. The fact that tyrion survives multiple battles with only cosmetic damage(to his nose) and is in the thick of the fighting, and manages to cut down far more skilled and larger men then himself is plot armor.

[The Crow]

Something that people invented to bitch about characters they don't like, and why they aren't dead.

AMEN!