Your assessments - how well does ASOIAF translate?

[Lasicka]

To make things worse, in AFFC, the translator decided to go through with translating surnames, as well, and for some reason, the proofreaders didn't put a stop to it. The outcome was terrible - consistency was entirely lost and the compounds were not just unnatural but adjectivised, following an existing but not that frequent pattern of surname formation. I suppose she did that to avoid the derivation of female surnames which would add another syllable to the already overly long compounds (adjectives only require a change of the ending) but it was definitely overdone.

I still have nightmares about this one... I mean it took me 3 books to realize who is who and who belong where, and she ruined all my efforts! I remember reading these weird new names and thinking - who the hell is this guy, how did he get here? :bang:

And the worst think about it was that she didn´t even keep translating the names thought out the whole book! I´ll give you a brilliant example: the Mad Mouse. At the beginning, when he met Brienne, his name was translated and he became Ser "Rybohojný". But at the end of the book, when he met Sansa, he was Ser Shadrich. So I had no idea that it was the Mad Mouse, who was introduced to Sansa, I found that out by coincidence, when I was looking at the asoiaf wiki... :bang:

Plus the whole series she translates all the bastard names, but Cotter Pyke is somehow still Pyke... :dunno:

[W@rlock]

Even when the spanish version is very good I remember an issue with Cat's dad. When he's dying he mentions the name "Anastasia".

I never understood it and it was here that i knew he said "tansy" maybe giving a clue about the moon tea and her sister...

[Iona]

I would love to see more translators using footnotes. I think many shy away from them due to the deep-imprinted notion of a translator's need to remain invisible. The Finnish translator of Edgar Allan Poe's collected works shamelessly opened up her own work (and Poe at the same time) to the reader, and I felt that it did not diminish the reading experience in any way, quite the contrary.

The thing is, 7 years ago I would have taken it and not doubt for a moment that I would succeed, much like the translator OP was talking about. You don't know what you don't know...

For me, one of the most hilarious and also most painful things about becoming a translator was that I had to face the fact that I sucked. I had the highest possible grades in both Finnish and English and thought I'd be a brilliant translator from the get-go. I was not, the first couple of translating classes proved that. This thread alone proves that there's more to translating than just knowing more than one language.

Lately, in Finland where all the foreign tv programmes are subtitled, we have seen a monstrous decline on the quality of subtitling, mainly because they now mostly come from multinational translating companies who have no desire to pay real, university-trained translators. They can get the same work done with less money by students or people who make the assumption of being able to translate without any training. And then people grumble how translators nowadays suck and they could do it better themselves... :(

[Lion of the West]

I actually think that Asoiaf does not translate worse than anything else. The main reasons as to why translations into our native languages does not sound as cool as the English words are more about we being used to reading these kind of things in English.

[Anath]

I actually think that Asoiaf does not translate worse than anything else. The main reasons as to why translations into our native languages does not sound as cool as the English words are more about we being used to reading these kind of things in English.

I do think the translation into my native language sounds just as cool as the English words simply because it's well done and it is in my native language - the one I got my flair of how a fiction should look like. There is a reason why most publishing houses prefer translators who translate to their native language - because they have this deeply-rooted touch that often goes unnoticed when it's there but becomes evident when it isn't.

ASOIAF is very translatable - when you have the experience. And when you have the time. From what I've seen in this thread, the problem with many of the ASOIAF translations is rooted in a nasty combination of factors - lack of time, lack of experience, lack of general knowledge and lack of self-confidence. Never underestimate the lack of confidence. The sheer size of the series leaves much room for doubt in one's earlier judgment and sometimes you're sorely tempted to change approach in the middle of a chapter. But for the life of me I cannot understand the logic behind the idea of translating Snow and Storm and leaving Flowers as it is. What was the translator thinking and was there an editor at all?

Iona, I've had cases where my footnotes were deleted later. Footnotes are generally frowned upon but I can't see the evil of them. For that matter, I often lament the fact that in UK and American books quotations are not marked in any way. When I was translating my very first novel, I missed a quote from Romeo and Juliet because it didn't stand out in any way. I wish it had been marked in italic or something. Instead I missed it and translated it and the editor didn't realize it because well, it was translated, it was correct and it sounded good.

[Ygrain]

I still have nightmares about this one... I mean it took me 3 books to realize who is who and who belong where, and she ruined all my efforts! I remember reading these weird new names and thinking - who the hell is this guy, how did he get here? :bang:

And the worst think about it was that she didn´t even keep translating the names thought out the whole book! I´ll give you a brilliant example: the Mad Mouse. At the beginning, when he met Brienne, his name was translated and he became Ser "Rybohojný". But at the end of the book, when he met Sansa, he was Ser Shadrich. So I had no idea that it was the Mad Mouse, who was introduced to Sansa, I found that out by coincidence, when I was looking at the asoiaf wiki... :bang:

Plus the whole series she translates all the bastard names, but Cotter Pyke is somehow still Pyke... :dunno:

Yeah, Ser Fish-abundant :bang: I never made the connection, either.

- Which reminds me, having a thread of experts at hand: is Shadrich even supposed to have such a meaning? I did find "shad" as a kind of fish but the name rather reminds me of the biblical Shadrach, and isn't it supposed to be the first name, anyway?

[Iona]

I actually think that Asoiaf does not translate worse than anything else. The main reasons as to why translations into our native languages does not sound as cool as the English words are more about we being used to reading these kind of things in English.

Some people seem to think that way, especially younger generations who are more "entuned" with English. I had never read any fantasy in English before ASOIAF (even though I studied to be a translator). And so far all the translated fantasy literature I've read has been at least good, some even excellent, and the "fantasy-related-vocabulary" did not seem alien or not-as-cool in Finnish as it does in English.

I know I'm a bit of a dreamer here, but I believe ASOIAF can be translated succesfully. It requires a lot more dedication from the translator than some other fantasy books might, but I believe it can be done.

[Ygrain]

I do think the translation into my native language sounds just as cool as the English words simply because it's well done and it is in my native language - the one I got my flair of how a fiction should look like. There is a reason why most publishing houses prefer translators who translate to their native language - because they have this deeply-rooted touch that often goes unnoticed when it's there but becomes evident when it isn't.

ASOIAF is very translatable - when you have the experience. And when you have the time. From what I've seen in this thread, the problem with many of the ASOIAF translations is rooted in a nasty combination of factors - lack of time, lack of experience, lack of general knowledge and lack of self-confidence. Never underestimate the lack of confidence. The sheer size of the series leaves much room for doubt in one's earlier judgment and sometimes you're sorely tempted to change approach in the middle of a chapter. But for the life of me I cannot understand the logic behind the idea of translating Snow and Storm and leaving Flowers as it is. What was the translator thinking and was there an editor at all?

I think she may not have realized that it was a bastard name, as well. And there has been a ton of other inconsistencies, anyway - e.g. we have Thoren Smallwood but "Lady of Maloles", which is one of them ingenious compounds combining malý+les (small+wood) in a way that is not normally done and which sounds even worse for that awkward -lole-.

[Adara]

I actually think that Asoiaf does not translate worse than anything else. The main reasons as to why translations into our native languages does not sound as cool as the English words are more about we being used to reading these kind of things in English.

Might be. But there are too many details literally lost in translation. How important could they get in the two upcoming books? I just don't like the idea, that the decision is left to the translators.

[Anath]

I know I'm a bit of a dreamer here, but I believe ASOIAF can be translated succesfully. It requires a lot more dedication from the translator than some other fantasy books might, but I believe it can be done.

You aren't a dreamer. It can be done. With time and skills, it isn't impossible at all.

One of the problems is, readers are impatient. Publishing houses, quite understandably, want to have some profit - and each day of delaying means "losing" readers to the English text. And with inexperienced translators, it's quite possible that they don't understand their text is lacking. No one is willing to lose time with looking for a new translator or having the current one correct the text, so here we are.

Ygrain, I cannot fathom how she might have missed the fact that Flowers is a bastard name. The series are seething with bastards. It isn't something mentioned once in the first chapter and then left alone. If anything, Jon is a PoV character and people love to remind him that he's a Snow.

[Iona]

Ygrain - to me Shadrich never registered as anything else than a name. I felt it had a sort of Irish wibe to it, so I always kinda thought the Mad Mouse was some crazy Irish dude... :D It never even dawned on me that you could divide it into Shad- and -rich. And I certainly wouldn't pronounce the ending the same way as I would the word "rich", as in wealthy.

[Lord Varys]

On the new German editions:

I've been co-working on them, but not from the very beginning. I only got on board of these after the first volume of AGoT was already finished, so pretty much all of the 'problematic translations' (i.e. Königsmund, Lennister, Casterlystein etc.) were nothing I could change afterwards.

But I was very involved with the work on all the other volumes. For instances, the title of the first volume of ADwD 'Der Sohn des Greifen' ('The Griffin's Son') is mine, as well as the decision to use the colors and words of houses Connington and Bolton on the front pages, and to split up ADwD between 'The Prince of Winterfell' and 'The Watcher'.

I also reworked the complete German translations from ACoK to AFfC, checking each page for mistakes and problematic words/translations. Things are really a lot better, but far from perfect.

[Anath]

Might be. But there are too many details literally lost in translation. How important could they get in the two upcoming books? I just don't like the idea, that the decision is left to the translators.

Oh yes. But there is no way around it.

The only real possibility I see is a footnote explaining the first decision and how the subsequent book showed it wasn't right. I can hear the thunder from readers howling that the translator is an incompetent one and publishing houses howling because of the footnote.

[Adara]

On the new German editions:

I've been co-working on them, but not from the very beginning. I only got on board of these after the first volume of AGoT was already finished, so pretty much all of the 'problematic translations' (i.e. Königsmund, Lennister, Casterlystein etc.) were nothing I could change afterwards.

But I was very involved with the work on all the other volumes. For instances, the title of the first volume of ADwD 'Der Sohn des Greifen' ('The Griffin's Son') is mine, as well as the decision to use the colors and words of houses Connington and Bolton on the front pages, and to split up ADwD between 'The Prince of Winterfell' and 'The Watcher'.

I also reworked the complete German translations from ACoK to AFfC, checking each page for mistakes and problematic words/translations. Things are really a lot better, but far from perfect.

Are there plans for a new edition?

[Ygrain]

Ygrain, I cannot fathom how she might have missed the fact that Flowers is a bastard name. The series are seething with bastards. It isn't something mentioned once in the first chapter and then left alone. If anything, Jon is a PoV character and people love to remind him that he's a Snow.

AS I've checked AGOT, unlike Snow or Stone who are connected to a particular person from the very beginning, Flowers is first mentioned as a bastard name during Cat's journey to the Eyrie, and then only with the corpse of Jafer Flowers. I think that by then, the translator has all but forgot about the previous occurence and the plural ending might have obscured the connection a bit, as well.

Ygrain - to me Shadrich never registered as anything else than a name. I felt it had a sort of Irish wibe to it, so I always kinda thought the Mad Mouse was some crazy Irish dude... :D It never even dawned on me that you could divide it into Shad- and -rich. And I certainly wouldn't pronounce the ending the same way as I would the word "rich", as in wealthy.

Wow, Irish? Never thught of that. - Not that I know many Irish names except from the olden legends and there aren't many folks around named Lugh or Nuada these days, right? :D

[Lord Varys]

The Winter,

I was referring to the 'old new editions'. The paperbacks with the arms on the front page. Those are the new editions. If you compare the text of these editions from ACoK to AFfC you will realize that they no longer include many mistakes of the old editions (those without translated names, or rather: with less translated names). There are no plans for any new editions I'm aware of. But it would really be great if we would finally make regular German editions in one volume.

A thing that is now works much better then in the old edition is the whole 'Tansy' thing in ASoS. The word is used and used and used in various contexts. To get that one right you can either not translate it (done so in the old edition) and lose pretty much all of the meaning and subtext the English edition had, or you try to find a German plant name that can be used as both a name for an abortion drug and a flower name for a (possibly) lowborn girl. That alone is very tricky. We decided to use 'Alraune' in the end. No German native speaker would ever name is daughter 'Rainfarn' or 'Gänsefingerkraut'.

Another thing are the various foreshadowing and prophecy scenes. You don't want to know what people can ruin - simply because they don't have the time or don't yet know - during the House of the Undying. All this stuff is really much better now. That is, as long as you can live with the German names.

[Iona]

Thank you for joining us, Lord Varys! Judging from your posts, I'm assuming that the ASOIAF translators don't get any guidelines to help them with their work. I know some authors provide their translators with some advice, some even organize meetings with the translators where they can question the author and "compare notes".

[Lord Varys]

Well, I did not only work on the translations. I did correct them, and reworked them, I was not the one who started doing it from scratch. But these guys have their own notes and takes on the text, but as far as I know there aren't any official guidelines from, say, GRRM, or his English publishers.

I really funny tidbit was that I stumbled upon Danny Flint in ASoS shortly before ADwD came out, and I was then not sure if she was male or female. Rape indicated female, but did not necessarily exclude male (could have been that Danny was a pretty young little boy like Satin). In ADwD we got the confirmation that Danny was a girl, and I could insert that in ASoS.

These things happen all the time. For instance, we translated the house name 'Fell' as 'Grimm' before we realized that there were Grimms (English) on the Shield Isles. Now the GRRM's 'Grimms' have become 'Grims' in German, if I remember correctly. Or House Strong. 'Strong' is spelled 'stark' in German. But we did not translate the English 'Stark' into German (could have been 'ganz', 'starr', 'schroff' oder 'kahl' in German). Thus we had to find another word for the literal meaning of 'strong' to not confuse things. House Strong is now 'Kraft' in German (which would be 'strength' or 'force' in English).

[Buckwheat]

Love the threads about translations. I am not a translator myself as of yet, but very much aspiring to become one after I finish my study.

I think the Slovene translation is fairly good, with each book getting slightly better. They were all translated by the same translator, save for ACOK - that one was translated by another, but I read somewhere that the both translators worked together a lot and discussed the names together. They both left the names the other invented the way they were in previous volume, so in theory there should not be any inconsistencies (some occured, but that would very hardly be avoided with the time given to translators).

Bastard surnames and nicknames are translated, Sneg (Snow), Kamen (Stone), Špik (Pyke) work fine. Neurje (Storm) is of neutral gender and sounds clunky, the ones in plural do not work that well IMO. Maybe the translator could have put them in singular? Not sure, that is why I am not a real translator yet!

My favourite words that got translated are:

Zimišče for Winterfell - "zim-(a)" is "winter" and "-išče" is a common suffix for places. First I took that to mean a place where winter was made, where it grows (for Starks). When I finally decided to check that word in a dictionary, I found out that it acutally it a word that means a place to spend the winter. The both definitions somehow got mixed in my mind, and I love both of them! :D

Mezinček for Littlefiger - it sounds cheeky and silly and fits him.

Gospa for Lady - just because it did not stay Lady. :P

The ones I dislike most are Žiljka for Gilly and Žolt (Žoltoplašči) for Lem (Lemoncloak). I can somehow get over Žiljka, they needed a plant name, still think Gilly sounds way better. I understand they needed a word game for Lem, but my personal impression of Žolt is just ... no. As opposed to lemons, that are valued as a rare fruit in Westeros, žolt is connected to rotten meat. It is yellow, but not the positive kind of yellow.

, but you can't have a prefix in one language and a name in another. I don't envy the poor bastard.

Oh yes. Try to tell this to the translator who got their hands on Hobb's Assassin trilogy here. FitzPravični. :bang:

I wasn't criticizing the translator per se, just the finished product. I can very well understand that rules, time pressure and compromise lead to a product that is less than what everybody who works on it thinks is desirable (certainly true where I work). But I would question why translators have to make it easy to understand for every one. This seems doomed in the first place, as people with very low vocabulary exist and they "should also deserve" to be able to read the books, but aren't. Even in it's original, I am sure ASOIAF is not easy-to-understand by every English speaker. That's usually not an argument not to make it as artful as possible, while still keeping the majority of possible readers in. I think the same should be allowed for translations, and it seems that the movie industry has taken exactly that approach (sorry, some granddad will not knoe what "Miss Undercover" is about, but that might actually be a good thing...)

They are not supposed to make it easy for every one. They are supposed to make it so easy or so complicated as the original author made it for native speakers. A native speaker of English does not struggle with the words such as Snow or Rivers at all. A person who is not an English native speaker should not be expected to understand those words. The translator does not make it any easier by changing them to an equally often used word in the translated language, he/she makes it equally understandable as the English version is for English speakers.

No German native speaker would ever name is daughter 'Rainfarn' or 'Gänsefingerkraut'.

:rofl: I would have pity with such a person! My real name is a plant word, but far from sounding anything like that.

Am I allowed to ask why in German the titles of the books were wholly changed? Die Herren von Winterfell sounds okay, but what exactly would be wrong with Das Spiel der Throne? By changing those titles, I think the books drew much more attention to a particular family, which is against the books actually - they are trying to tell the whole story of the land, not about one family only.

[Adara]

The Winter,

I was referring to the 'old new editions'. The paperbacks with the arms on the front page. Those are the new editions. If you compare the text of these editions from ACoK to AFfC you will realize that they no longer include many mistakes of the old editions (those without translated names, or rather: with less translated names). There are no plans for any new editions I'm aware of. But it would really be great if we would finally make regular German editions in one volume.

Five books instead of ten would be wonderful! (or: seven instead of fourteen :D)

A thing that is now works much better then in the old edition is the whole 'Tansy' thing in ASoS. The word is used and used and used in various contexts. To get that one right you can either not translate it (done so in the old edition) and lose pretty much all of the meaning and subtext the English edition had, or you try to find a German plant name that can be used as both a name for an abortion drug and a flower name for a (possibly) lowborn girl. That alone is very tricky. We decided to use 'Alraune' in the end. No German native speaker would ever name is daughter 'Rainfarn' or 'Gänsefingerkraut'.

Actually, "Alraune" was a really good decision, a name with a medieval touch. I think it was someone, who read the spanish Edition writing about the name "Anastacia" for Tansy. I don't know, if Anastacia is a name for a flower in Spain. If not so, the spanish translators will have so sort that one out :)

Another thing are the various foreshadowing and prophecy scenes. You don't want to know what people can ruin - simply because they don't have the time or don't yet know - during the House of the Undying. All this stuff is really much better now. That is, as long as you can live with the German names.

The german names are a problem. Also the changing of names... like Mace Tyrell. First he was Maas Tyrell, later Maes Tyrell. Later, when I found this forum, I realised his original name was Mace. I just don't understand the reason for translating a name like Mace.

Am I allowed to ask why in German the titles of the books were wholly changed? Die Herren von Winterfell sounds okay, but what exactly would be wrong with Das Spiel der Throne? By changing those titles, I think the books drew much more attention to a particular family, which is against the books actually - they are trying to tell the whole story of the land, not about one family only.

I was about to ask the same :)