History Teaching in Westeros

[Mithras]

The nobility in Westeros seem to know a great deal of history thanks to the maesters. Regarding "the world the Citadel is building", how can be assess the reliability of this knowledge?

[Gneisenau]

How can we assess the validity of our real history ? How do we know if some Roman Emperors were truly crazy or if some of the claims were exagerrated as slander by their sucessors ?

[protar]

We really can't, but as the whole Citadel Conspiracy is mostly just about dragons and magic there seems little reason for them to lie about more ordinary historical events. And after all the novices going into the Citadel most likely want to learn and spread knowledge. I would guess the average Maester is honest, with the higher-ups scheming.

[Mithras]

We really can't, but as the whole Citadel Conspiracy is mostly just about dragons and magic there seems little reason for them to lie about more ordinary historical events. And after all the novices going into the Citadel most likely want to learn and spread knowledge. I would guess the average Maester is honest, with the higher-ups scheming.

The Citadel Conspiracy was also about arranging marriages and forming alliances. They controll the flow of information. They control the science and learning. They know the secrets of the house they are serving. I think the maesters want to pull the strings of politics behind the screen. Of course, such a narrative cannot be put on history books written by the maesters.

[DrunkSister]

Firstly, i am rather tired, so this response might be a bit incoherent.

Secondly, there is an issue you should be aware of before talking about your topic in earnest: GRRM has told the readers only what he wants us to know. So just because we have some misconceptions about what happened doesn't mean the characters do.

For example the mosaic (or was it a tapestry?) about the Doom of Valyria we see in Dany's POV when she meets Drogo - so in Pentos there are representations of what has happened independent of maester propaganda that any noble who wanted to travel could have seen - the reader DOESN'T KNOW what happened.

The story of the Last Hero and how he found CoTF... interrupted at the most interesting place. Bran knows how it goes, and I bet everybody else in the North does as well. Grr...

On the other side of the world our source is Jorah, who is no scholar, and Dany who is 13-14 and has no formal education.

During the heretical reread (which is on hiatus atm) we evaluated where the info on the CoTF, Wall, migrations, wars and ages of the world came from, and during the AGoT the source of information was maester Luwin in Winterfell. So every single bit of worldbuilding GRRM served us in AGoT is possibly misinformation because Luwin was either teaching chidren, or explaining stuff to Ned, who is a very busy man. And Luwin personally is very disillusioned about magic because he studied it and failed, but how widespread is that thinking in Westeros or even in Citadel?

We later see that there are many different interpretations in the Citadel itself, and that a geek among the nobles could have gathered enough to question the whole timeline and many events in it. Not to mention what wonders Sam could have dug up if he had been given time.

OK, so much for that, now for the real question:

Arya was learning Valyrian but Jon treats language of the First Men as lost, and that even though they had runes to transmit knowledge, they don't know how to read them. This loss of heritage among the First Men could be part of an agenda, or it could be a matter of cultural assimilation.

There is also that weird moment when Ghost leads the men of the Night Watch towards the wights and these members of an organization that exists for fighting these things recognize the signs but are too afraid to say them aloud. Remember how somebody whispered 'burn them' but couldn't explain it and were afraid of saying it. Same with Waymar, Will and Gared, if only they have listened to their mommies, they would have known what to do (but never trust what you've learned at a woman's tit).

That is something that came from rereads (I have no idea who to credit with the idea), among the First Men and possibly Andals etc. the knowledge, lore, healing arts etc. were transfered by the women (for example Mance was healed by a woman who learned from her mother, Osha says something like 'I lived beyond the wall, and my mother before me, and her mother before her, we remember', Will's mom and Waymar Royse wet nurse told them stories about Others...). So a lot of threads were broken once noblewomen were thought by maesters and not by wise-women and the knowledge of these later was discredited. Not to mention that it means that only one kind of knowledge had the legitimacy to be passed on (remember how Luwin calls Osha 'woman' and doesn't listen to her no matter what she says?) Is this an unfortunate result of sexism or is this another step towards building a new, better world?

I am, as of The Princess and the Queen, sitting on the fense when it comes to 'maesters have killed the dragons' - Targs were too good at doing it themselves, OTOH, anything is possible.

My gut feeling is telling me that there is something very sinister going on but I can't put the puzzle together.

Some more pieces:

What is the deal with Aemon being sent to the Wall?

When did ravens stop reciting their messages? Was it before or after maesters started dealing with correspondance?

What does 'We remember' mean? Osha remembers, Royces remember, the North remembers - do they?

...

My pet theory is that there is some huge slab of stone at the Castle Black or Nightfort that says 'How To Fight Others For Dummies' but nobody can read it anymore.

[DrunkSister]

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. ‘This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. ‘He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, ‘In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. ‘If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, ‘you were never here.' "

"No more than I was," said Davos Seaworth.

I run into the quote reading threads.

So here we have a maester actually cheering for Targs. Just serves to prove that they are not a monolithic as Lady Dustlin and maester Marwin claim.

[Mithras]

I run into the quote reading threads.

So here we have a maester actually cheering for Targs. Just serves to prove that they are not a monolithic as Lady Dustlin and maester Marwin claim.

The conspiracy suggests that the maesters involved are a secret group. In fact, there must be several of such groups. In addition to that, there are maesters still holding to their home country politics.

[DrunkSister]

But what is a maester's home country? They get sent to the Citadel as boys, swear oaths (IDK what they swear), give up their family names, get sent to serve who knows where...

There are some great families who are so influential that their kids do not go through this alienation, like Tyrells, and then there are Martells who seem to sent kids there for a year or two (cross dressing optional). Those still keep their family allegiances, but it seems to me that they are not part of any conspiracy.

I am not sure if there is a small group of conspirators because how would they implement long term plans like eradication of magical lore and practice? How long does that take?

What I have seen rereading, denial of anything magical (CoTF are a legend, there is no magic evidence be damned etc.) goes far far beyond what a small conspiracy could accomplish. This anti-magic stuff got institutionalized at one point and is now on auto pilot.

And I don't know what is the intended goal and what are the unintended consequences. I mean, did they try to facilitate the zombie apocalypse or merely to make the world a place where red priests can not rise people from the dead.

IDK, it seems to me that this goes way beyond a group of old men conspiring behind the closed doors, or even several groups.

[Sansa_Stark]

I run into the quote reading threads.

So here we have a maester actually cheering for Targs. Just serves to prove that they are not a monolithic as Lady Dustlin and maester Marwin claim.

Well, its entirely possible that he's just trying to get that "rich reward"

[DrunkSister]

Well, its entirely possible that he's just trying to get that "rich reward"

Um, yes. But if we are talking about a maester conspiracy and trying to determine things about it, then it is important to note that this particular maester is a loose canon and only after the prize. He was also sent to a minor holding, which might not be an accident if there is a conspiracy.

I wonder what kind of teacher of history he would make.

[Sansa_Stark]

Um, yes. But if we are talking about a maester conspiracy and trying to determine things about it, then it is important to note that this particular maester is a loose canon and only after the prize. He was also sent to a minor holding, which might not be an accident if there is a conspiracy.

I wonder what kind of teacher of history he would make.

Well of course, I don't think every maester is a part of it

Surely not Cressen or Aemon. But I do believe many of them are.

[Mithras]

But what is a maester's home country? They get sent to the Citadel as boys, swear oaths (IDK what they swear), give up their family names, get sent to serve who knows where...

There are some great families who are so influential that their kids do not go through this alienation, like Tyrells, and then there are Martells who seem to sent kids there for a year or two (cross dressing optional). Those still keep their family allegiances, but it seems to me that they are not part of any conspiracy.

I am not sure if there is a small group of conspirators because how would they implement long term plans like eradication of magical lore and practice? How long does that take?

What I have seen rereading, denial of anything magical (CoTF are a legend, there is no magic evidence be damned etc.) goes far far beyond what a small conspiracy could accomplish. This anti-magic stuff got institutionalized at one point and is now on auto pilot.

And I don't know what is the intended goal and what are the unintended consequences. I mean, did they try to facilitate the zombie apocalypse or merely to make the world a place where red priests can not rise people from the dead.

IDK, it seems to me that this goes way beyond a group of old men conspiring behind the closed doors, or even several groups.

Wyman's maester was from Lannisport (maybe some offspring pf Lannisters). Therefore he dared not to send any important message to anyone. What I want to say is that there is a anti-magic maester conspiracy going on for a long time. But in addition to that, there are many maesters organized to pursue their own political agenda. Lady Dustin's words should tell us something. And knowledge is power.

[DrunkSister]

Wyman's maester was from Lannisport (maybe some offspring pf Lannisters). Therefore he dared not to send any important message to anyone. What I want to say is that there is a anti-magic maester conspiracy going on for a long time. But in addition to that, there are many maesters organized to pursue their own political agenda. Lady Dustin's words should tell us something. And knowledge is power.

Like I said, not all of them go through that. But this politicking is still just a game, and IMO should be separated from the question of reliability of transferring knowledge. That Lannisport fella could be a great teacher of history as understood in the Citadel, and that would have nothing to do with whether he will betray his lord.

I mean, we can and should be talking about that, but it is not in the OP and I would personally rather separate it into a thread of its own.

There is something very strange in how people get educated in Westeros. I mean, in our world being sceptical is a matter of scientific method, you observe reality and make conclusions, and religion is based on faith.

In Westeros, people who are most learned deny existence of magic, they repeat again and again that magic doesn’t exist, when left and right it is happening. Imagine what happens to the poor brains of nobles educated in that way since they were toddlers. They turn to mush. And whenever there is an outsider claiming otherwise maesters shut them up calling it spreading false tales etc.

[Mithras]

Jojen said there are many things forgotten in Winterfell but still remembered in the Neck. He was talking about First Men lore and magic. I think erasing the First Men influence is a one of the major goals of the Citadel/Faith for a long time.

[Ser Lepus]

The Free Cities have their own scholars and teachers and historians, and they probably keep a lot of history books in their libraries, so, if somebody wanted to rewrite history, those people couldn't remove all the knowledge of past events.

Septons used to write history books before the Citadel took over education, and they still seem to have a hand on the art of bookbinding and manuscript copying and on the painting of illuminated books, so they might keep their own libraries and even have their own writers. They may even have their own religious schools.

That said, the Maesters teach their version of history to everybody who matters in Westeros, so they could impose their historical views without much trouble, they just have to be subtle to avoid the scholars from the Free Cities and the Faith to notice their meddling.

[Mithras]

As we see from TPatQ and TRP, the history books in Westeros suck.

I think Citadel's monopoly must be broken. A new institution of science in White Harbour would be perfect.

[Wmarshal]

The nobility in Westeros seem to know a great deal of history thanks to the maesters. Regarding "the world the Citadel is building", how can be assess the reliability of this knowledge?

You can't, you can't fault the maesters for not buying half the ridicules stuff they find or hear, because in our world it is the same, only reason we poke at them is because we know of the magic.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

As we see from TPatQ and TRP, the history books in Westeros suck.

I think Citadel's monopoly must be broken. A new institution of science in White Harbour would be perfect.

That would be an awesome location, it's a pity we don't get an extensive hindsight on regular administration of those cities.

You can't, you can't fault the maesters for not buying half the ridicules stuff they find or hear, because in our world it is the same, only reason we poke at them is because we know of the magic.

I don't know, maybe for them Dragons were so regular that they thought their proved existence was no proof other mythical beings existed. But I would have my reservations on the matter. It seems to me most maesters, like Luwin, are simply close minded people who learn science on books, but know nothing about research and scientific method. So in my opinion there is plenty of space to criticise them and the institution that educated them.

Having said this, it's true that their entire culture has not yet achieved determined cultural standards, at least as far as we know no Galileo Galilei has tried to teach them the right approach to open questions and 'assumptions'.

[HexMachina]

As we see from TPatQ and TRP, the history books in Westeros suck.

There is nothing wrong with the Maester's history, save that it is biased. Moving to another city isn't going to change that. No man with half a brain is going to write "King xyz is a whore-mongering bastard" if their heads can be snicked off for it, whether they are Maesters in Oldtown or Maester's in King's Landing or whatever.

I think Citadel's monopoly must be broken. A new institution of science in White Harbour would be perfect.

Because the people of White Harbour have such an extensive knowledge of science? The thing the citadel is most ignorant of is Magic.

[Wmarshal]

As we see from TPatQ and TRP, the history books in Westeros suck.

I think Citadel's monopoly must be broken. A new institution of science in White Harbour would be perfect.

And you think some random steward of WH isn't going to be biased?