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R+L=J v 67


Stubby

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Something that has always given me pause for thought, "It is just a theory, it is not in the book." Unfortunately there is a huge amount of the book that confirms it, in writing, just not specifically. Would these people believe it if Jon thought that it was true? I doubt it. Would they believe it is Stannis thought it was true? I doubt it. What if the entire kingdom thought it was true? I doubt that as well. There are things that the entire kingdom believes that are just untrue. (This is a challenge for the reader, I don't want to try to prove it. ;) ) There is much more to a good story than saying what is and what is not fact. The good story motivates the good reader to investigate and discover the truth on their own. The bad reader just wants to be entertained.


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Something that has always given me pause for thought, "It is just a theory, it is not in the book." Unfortunately there is a huge amount of the book that confirms it, in writing, just not specifically.

That amuses and annoys me, too. I'd argue that it is in the book, just written in such a way that you're meant to figure it out for yourself. The mystery isn't so much who Jon's parents really are; it's how that will affect the story, at this point. I have no patience for walking on eggshells around something that is essentially fact, just because some people need everything spoonfed to them. I have even less patience for contrariness for its own sake, wanting to "go against the flow" to be "cool" or whatever the motivation is. It's the prevailing theory for a reason, and based on what I've seen these people toss out, it's not in any danger of being undone anytime soon.

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It's the prevailing theory for a reason, and based on what I've seen these people toss out, it's not in any danger of being undone anytime soon.

It is easier to ignore facts than try to address them in this case. Any contrary theory would need to rest on a few hints and does not logically explain motives and actions in the story, while this theory has volumes of proof and logically explains so much of the story.

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You took exception to the statement that I made that two people who have two different opinions does not negate, or cancel out the other persons sincere, or heartfelt beliefs, and seemed to interpret that statement that I was claiming that all opinions are the same.

My point was that just because I might disagree with someone does not mean I personally think, or that I am saying they're wrong, especially absent the facts in an unfinished work of fantasy.

You then went on a diatribe about the internet, education, (and yes, I am a proponent of education for all), and your tone smacked of an intolerant elitism which I took exception to, and in which case I questioned that absent facts, who has the right to decide?

You didn't offend me, and I feel that real people fighting one another over fantasy characters is what gives fantasy and these forums a bad name.

Intolerant elitism is the last thing I would ever like to represent. I'm glad you are not discouraging people to seek education, a thing in this life that should be available to all and for free, which sadly it is not, even in developed places like USA (Scandinavian countries should be an example to the rest of the world). And internet is a cesspool of hatred, bigotry and ignorance which could benefit from some education.

On the rest I feel that what you took from my previous posts and how you interpreted my words was not the way I truly meant them, but I do feel our views on this particular matter differ. The saying; opinions are like *******, everybody has one, exists for a reason. When someone comes here with a heartfelt conviction that Jon is Aegon and then offers absolutely nothing behind this statement but expects to be treated seriously, well, he/she really shouldn't expect that. Same goes for other similar cases.

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I just asked people to be a little polite, and see where the arguments are going. Was it really that bad a thing...

I don't think that an honest-asking, polite noob, gets addressed impolitely. On the other hand, if someone approaches the debate with an attitude like "so tell me what this BS is about and you're idiots to believe it, anyway"...

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Intolerant elitism is the last thing I would ever like to represent. I'm glad you are not discouraging people to seek education, a thing in this life that should be available to all and for free, which sadly it is not, even in developed places like USA (Scandinavian countries should be an example to the rest of the world). And internet is a cesspool of hatred, bigotry and ignorance which could benefit from some education.

On the rest I feel that what you took from my previous posts and how you interpreted my words was not the way I truly meant them, but I do feel our views on this particular matter differ. The saying; opinions are like *******, everybody has one, exists for a reason. When someone comes here with a heartfelt conviction that Jon is Aegon and then offers absolutely nothing behind this statement but expects to be treated seriously, well, he/she really shouldn't expect that. Same goes for other similar cases.

Lets chalk it up to a misunderstanding. '

The internet is not the best place to try and judge character, because not being face-to-face, we can miss important nuances on points, so I apologize.

And I do think it's Martins gift that makes people so passionate.

One of the reasons I enjoy this forum is that in my real life, its all business and numbers, so I don't get to have these types of conversations.

I love the free exchange of ideas, but I suppose when I see a theory that I privately think is over the top, I just assume the person is either being deliberately provocative, or they have a personal bias, so in either case, I'm not like to change their mind by taking them on.

But, for the sake clarity, I don't think Jon is Aegon, (unless Ned named Lyanna and Rhaegars son for his recently murdered half brother) , I don't think Jon is Wyllas son, a fishermans daughter's son, or was found under a cabbage. :)

And I feel the same way about the internet as you do.

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OMG. When do we agree on the idea that With someone like the Mountain, as with most abusers, they learn to hide their natures very well. ? The Mountain is a monster, a savage giant, but when did he learn to "hide their natures well" ? In Arya's eyes did the Mountain seem like a man who knew to hide his nature? In Jaime's eyes? In Sandor's eyes? Or In Oberyn's eyes?

Don't forget that when the first time Rhaegar saw Cersei, she was 10-years old, while Gergor was 16-years old when he was knighted by Rheager. If Rheager so wise to see the "power hungry narcissism" in a little girl, how could he failed to see the monster in a teenager? By knighted by a important figure is a great honor and look at Jaime, who was so proud to be knighted by the Sword of the Morning. As the seven-kingdom crown prince, didn't Rheager has the duty to honor the right people, at least not the one who pushed his little brother's face into fire?

Even if Rheager had to do this as a favor to Tywin, at that time the Targaryen not only refused Tywins daughter but also stole Tywin's heir, and Tywin was so angry that he resigned his position and return to Casterly Rock! How could knighting Tywin's dog be considered a enough favor to Tywin? It's absolutely useless!

I don't think Rhaegar had the chance to be up close and personal with Gregor the way he did Cersei, and didn't Cersei push her friend down the well for making doe eyes at Jaimie the same day she was being presented to Rhaegar?

Gregor is a monster, an abuser, a psycho as well as a predator, and they do hide their natures when necessary.

If Rhaegar was knighting him as a favor to Tywin, then Rhaegar may not have felt the need to look too closely.

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I don't think Rhaegar had the chance to be up close and personal with Gregor the way he did Cersei, and didn't Cersei push her friend down the well for making doe eyes at Jaimie the same day she was being presented to Rhaegar?

Gregor is a monster, an abuser, a psycho as well as a predator, and they do hide their natures when necessary.

If Rhaegar was knighting him as a favor to Tywin, then Rhaegar may not have felt the need to look too closely.

I may be confusing this with something but wasn't Gregor knighted because he had proven himself in a fight or something like that? I gather it was quite common to knight someone for showing skill and valour, and there was definitely no research done into the person's background (not that I think that the Cleganes exactly advertised what had happened to Sandor, anyway).

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I may be confusing this with something but wasn't Gregor knighted because he had proven himself in a fight or something like that? I gather it was quite common to knight someone for showing skill and valour, and there was definitely no research done into the person's background (not that I think that the Cleganes exactly advertised what had happened to Sandor, anyway).

Thats what I thought too, but I couldn't remember.

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Wow. First post here, I've just finished the series the other day, the first post in this thread with the overview about R+L=J is very enlightening and addresses some issues I hadn't even thought to question. I'm so happy I can now join the ASOIAF internet community - been avoiding it like the plague thus far. I also take it that as there have been 67 installments of this topic, the fandom isn't exactly in agreement about it? :laugh:


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Thats what I thought too, but I couldn't remember.

It might be in some Arya or Sansa chapter but I'm afraid I don't have the time to try and fish it now. Or could it be Jaime? Something with the punitive expedition against those outlaws (can't recall what they were called - the one who branded Merret Frey's ass)?

Wow. First post here, I've just finished the series the other day, the first post in this thread with the overview about R+L=J is very enlightening and addresses some issues I hadn't even thought to question. I'm so happy I can now join the ASOIAF internet community - been avoiding it like the plague thus far. I also take it that as there have been 67 installments of this topic, the fandom isn't exactly in agreement about it? :laugh:

Hello and welcome to the forums :-)

There are some who disagree. Other than that, there are recurring question from new posters and some literary analysis whenever someone picks on something that hasn't been discussed yet - even now, there are still new aspects and angles to be found.

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I'd say most of the forum regulars are in agreement about the broad strokes of it. The huge number of threads has three reasons:



  1. Newcomers stumbling across the theory and asking questions.
  2. Discussion of the particulars of how all of this will ultimately play out, its importance for the story, as well as discussion of the many pieces of foreshadowing of this.
  3. The centrality of the theory to many of the open questions of the series. How are we meant to judge Robert's Rebellion? Does R+L=J make Jon the heir to the Iron Throne? What about the Prince that was Promised and him coming from Aerys' and Rhaella's line? What are the three heads of the dragon? Who is Azor Ahai? R+L=J has huge implications for what answers to these questions are possible in the first place, and there are often threads popping up that ultimately end up merged with this thread because they veer too close to discussion about R+L=J.
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snip

You've left out the Tower of Joy. That one is a source of many a thread and post, ever since the dawn of the forums, and tainted many a discussion with its eternal dilemma.

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You're right of course. The Tower of Joy and its interpretation is certainly one of the more contested scenes, probably because the R+L=J deniers hope thatif they can find another valid interpretation for it, they might get away with their theory. I'm inclined to agree that any alternative to R+L=J has to explain the ToJ, but I think there's more to the theory than just the ToJ alone, and I haven't seen a convincing case for an alternative interpretation of the ToJ...


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You didn't offend me, and I feel that real people fighting one another over fantasy characters is what gives fantasy and these forums a bad name.

Thank you for pointing this out Alia, I wholeheartedly agree with you; it's quite silly.

It might be in some Arya or Sansa chapter but I'm afraid I don't have the time to try and fish it now. Or could it be Jaime? Something with the punitive expedition against those outlaws (can't recall what they were called - the one who branded Merret Frey's ass)?

I found it for you Ygrain. It's in Sansa, chapter 29 in GOT after the tourney when Sandor's escorting Sansa back to the Red Keep after the tourney and he tells her about how his brother burned his face when he was seven:

My father told everyone my bedding had caught fire, and our maester gave me ointments. Ointments! Gregor got his ointments too. Four years later, they anointed him with the seven oils and he recited his knightly vows and Rhaegar Targaryen tapped him on the shoulder and said, 'Arise, Ser Gregor.'"

Unfortunately, it doesn't mention what he did to deserve the honor or if occurred during the tourney in Lannisport. Does anyone else remember any other mentions?

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This is frustrating beyond belief. Somehow this got into discussing intelligence as a virtue.The thing is I did not mention the word intelligence in any post of mine. That is something that Alia did. You don't have to be intelligent to know something is right or wrong, logical or illogical, that it makes sense or that it doesn't.

This is what I was referring to:

Many intellectuals who led unwashed masses to slaughter? Really? You're mixing your Hitlers with Einsteins.

What Alia is trying to say is opinions matter even one believes them to be wrong. Otherwise how can you expect someone to respect your opinion if you won't respect theirs? If someone has a different opinion engage them in conversation, present evidence and try to persuade them as you would surely agree. Otherwise, suppressing other opinions, even in one's own mind, because they are contradictory to what you believe to be true was the view of the Inquisition. If I have erred, I apologize in advance.

As to the main topic, I think Baelor Breakspear may be a clue for Jon if it hasn't already been mentioned:

  • Dark-haired, Targaryen crown prince who takes after his mother in coloring

Practical enough to insist upon hostages from the people he fought (Blackfyre supporters/wildlings)

No jewels or pomp needed, plainly dressed

Defended Dunk in trial by seven at a tourney/ Defended Sam in a fight at a training yard with seven people (Sam, Jon, Grenn, Pyp, Halder, Rast and Albett)

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