R+L=J v 67

[Lyse Stark]

This is what I was referring to:

What Alia is trying to say is opinions matter even one believes them to be wrong. Otherwise how can you expect someone to respect your opinion if you won't respect theirs? If someone has a different opinion engage them in conversation, present evidence and try to persuade them as you would surely agree. Otherwise, suppressing other opinions, even in one's own mind, because they are contradictory to what you believe to be true was the view of the Inquisition. If I have erred, I apologize in advance.

As to the main topic, I think Baelor Breakspear may be a clue for Jon if it hasn't already been mentioned:

• Dark-haired, Targaryen crown prince who takes after his mother in coloring
• Practical enough to insist upon hostages from the people he fought (Blackfyre supporters/wildlings)
• No jewels or pomp needed, plainly dressed
• Defended Dunk in trial by seven at a tourney/ Defended Sam in a fight at a training yard with seven people (Sam, Jon, Grenn, Pyp, Halder, Rast and Albett)

And Baelor and Jon both had "winter" sensibilities in the fact that they believe that showing off all your finery when people are starving is a very bad move, and they, as kings, would also prefer to wear crowns that are much more simpler and more austere than the usual enjewelled ones.

[Alia of the knife]

@lareine

It looks whatever the circumstances, Rhaegar was really in no position to NOT knight him, so another one of Martins horrific ironies regarding Rhaegars life.

@Lyse

To your point about "winter" sensibilities, there was a thread about a year ago that discussed the fact that the Starks may have had secret wealth, or may have been as wealthy as the Lannisters, but they just didn't advertise the fact due to it being considered bad taste, which Jon clearly picked up.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

<p>

This is what I was referring to:

What Alia is trying to say is opinions matter even one believes them to be wrong. Otherwise how can you expect someone to respect your opinion if you won't respect theirs? If someone has a different opinion engage them in conversation, present evidence and try to persuade them as you would surely agree. Otherwise, suppressing other opinions, even in one's own mind, because they are contradictory to what you believe to be true was the view of the Inquisition. If I have erred, I apologize in advance.

As to the main topic, I think Baelor Breakspear may be a clue for Jon if it hasn't already been mentioned:

• Dark-haired, Targaryen crown prince who takes after his mother in coloring
• Practical enough to insist upon hostages from the people he fought (Blackfyre supporters/wildlings)
• No jewels or pomp needed, plainly dressed
• Defended Dunk in trial by seven at a tourney/ Defended Sam in a fight at a training yard with seven people (Sam, Jon, Grenn, Pyp, Halder, Rast and Albett)

Only one problem. Wasn't Rast fighting against Sam? With Halder and Albett?

Everything else you said I completely agree with!

[FrozenFire3]

@lareine

It looks whatever the circumstances, Rhaegar was really in no position to NOT knight him, so another one of Martins horrific ironies regarding Rhaegars life.

I absolutely agree. I wouldn't even exclude he was acting on a direct order from his sire and king. Still too little infos to pass harsh judgement anyway.

[moon on the willow]

Thank you for pointing this out Alia, I wholeheartedly agree with you; it's quite silly.

I found it for you Ygrain. It's in Sansa, chapter 29 in GOT after the tourney when Sandor's escorting Sansa back to the Red Keep after the tourney and he tells her about how his brother burned his face when he was seven:

Unfortunately, it doesn't mention what he did to deserve the honor or if occurred during the tourney in Lannisport. Does anyone else remember any other mentions?

Both Gergor and Cersei were born in 266AC. Cersei was 10-years-old when the royals went to Lannisport, and Gergor was also 10-years-old. At his 12-years-old Gergor pushed Sandor's face onto fire, and four years later he was knighted by Rhaeger, at the same time Tywin had returned to Casterly Rock.

[moon on the willow]

I don't think Rhaegar had the chance to be up close and personal with Gregor the way he did Cersei, and didn't Cersei push her friend down the well for making doe eyes at Jaimie the same day she was being presented to Rhaegar?

Gregor is a monster, an abuser, a psycho as well as a predator, and they do hide their natures when necessary.

If Rhaegar was knighting him as a favor to Tywin, then Rhaegar may not have felt the need to look too closely.

There was no one knew who killed her friend but Cersei, just like Sandor and Gergor's father told others that Sandor's face was hurt by a burning bedding. In the situation where Aerys refused to marry Cersei to Rhaeger, there was no personal conmunication between her and him. If Rhaeger had such wise and insight to see her character that making him not to make Cersei a future Queen, how could he lost the quality to see the monster in Gregor six years later? " they do hide their natures when necessary". Could anyone see a lamb in Gregor? I mean, even if a poor inner failed to see how abuse Gregor was, shouldn't a "who-could-have been one of the greatest king" Rhaeger see Gregor's inside, just like six years ago he see the inside of a 10-years-old Cersei?

As for the "Rhaegar has to knight Gergor to favor Tywin", I don't think someone who couldn't even refuse to excessively honoring a very unfit condidant made a good king. And when the so-called "someone" did do such thing, I tend to think if he isn't so dull to see the condidant's character, then he is too weak to refuse.

[Alia of the knife]

@Moon on the Willow

It seems clear you have a personal bias and nothing I say will change your mind.

I don't think Rhaegar was perfect, but I do think it's possible to see things clearly in some circumstances, but perhaps not so in other circumstances, just as in real life.

[Fire Eater]

Only one problem. Wasn't Rast fighting against Sam? With Halder and Albett?

Everything else you said I completely agree with!

Seven people in the fight total, and it includes Sam since it began with him against Halder. A bit of a stretch I know.

[Lyse Stark]

I have my own thoughts on the Old Gods marking Jon as the Rightful King; I think that they want Jon to be king because they believe Westeros needs balance and pragmatism, not powerlust and ambition. And with the Others and the Long Night 2.0, Jon will undoubtedly will be needed because he knows about the threat to all of Westeros, and he will be able to lead the fight against the Others. The Tyrells, Lannisters and all the other houses scheming to grab the IT will fall victim to them because they disregarded the warning signs. As a result the political landscape post-LN 2.0 will undoubtedly be different. What was once ruled by greed and powerlust will be ruled by the need to survive and rebuild.

[DrunkSister]

I don't think I have seen this mentioned before, though with the sheer volume of these treads it might have been.

“Not this time, Sam. I dreamed... in the black of night a man asks all the questions he dare not ask by daylight. For me, these past years, only one question has remained. Why would the gods take my eyes and my strength, yet condemn me to linger on so long, frozen and forgotten? What use could they have for an old done man like me?” Aemon’s fingers trembled, twigs sheathed in spotted skin. “I remember, Sam. I still remember.”
He was not making sense. “Remember what?”
“Dragons,” Aemon whispered. “The grief and glory of my House, they were.”
“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

Maester Aemon, in Sam's POV, AFFC

I wonder, we see in D&E novellas that dragon-dreams are not necessarily of real dragons. Is Jon one of the dragons maester Aemon is dreaming about?

He talks of dragons, plural. This could mean:

• continuing to talk in plural because that is how the conversation started
• he is probably thinking of Dany's dragons, and there is three of them,
• maester Aemon could have dreamt of Rhaegar (and/or himself), in fact, he says that he remembers dragons, so I suspect that he stopped dreaming of at least some of them
• 'Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.'
• well, he could be one?
• Bloodraven, thought being able to feel their breath suggests some proximity greater than several days of travel, and I don't think mr. tree-god is going anywhere
• Jon Snow - because 'on the snow' is IMO a hint by the Author

He is probably talking of a lifetime of dreams in a single conversation, but I think that it is significant that the one(s?) talked in the present tense is of the read star bleeding (Dany reborn+D&V&R) and shadows on the snow (at the wall).

What do you think?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I don't think I have seen this mentioned before, though with the sheer volume of these treads it might have been.

Not this time, Sam. I dreamed... in the black of night a man asks all the questions he dare not ask by daylight. For me, these past years, only one question has remained. Why would the gods take my eyes and my strength, yet condemn me to linger on so long, frozen and forgotten? What use could they have for an old done man like me? Aemons fingers trembled, twigs sheathed in spotted skin. I remember, Sam. I still remember.

He was not making sense. Remember what?

Dragons, Aemon whispered. The grief and glory of my House, they were.

The last dragon died before you were born, said Sam. How could you remember them?

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

Maester Aemon, in Sam's POV, AFFC

I wonder, we see in D&E novellas that dragon-dreams are not necessarily of real dragons. Is Jon one of the dragons maester Aemon is dreaming about?

He talks of dragons, plural. This could mean:

• continuing to talk in plural because that is how the conversation started
• he is probably thinking of Dany's dragons, and there is three of them,
• maester Aemon could have dreamt of Rhaegar (and/or himself), in fact, he says that he remembers dragons, so I suspect that he stopped dreaming of at least some of them
• 'Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.'
• well, he could be one?
• Bloodraven, thought being able to feel their breath suggests some proximity greater than several days of travel, and I don't think mr. tree-god is going anywhere
• Jon Snow - because 'on the snow' is IMO a hint by the Author

He is probably talking of a lifetime of dreams in a single conversation, but I think that it is significant that the one(s?) talked in the present tense is of the read star bleeding (Dany reborn+D&V&R) and shadows on the snow (at the wall).

What do you think?

Nice catch! I've always read that and focused on "my brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one" as proof that Egg also had dragon dreams. But "shadows on the snow" is a really wonderful Jon reference and supports the idea that Aemon's dragon dreams have revived just as Jon arrived at the wall. Very interesting indeed.

[corbon]

There was no one knew who killed her friend but Cersei, just like Sandor and Gergor's father told others that Sandor's face was hurt by a burning bedding. In the situation where Aerys refused to marry Cersei to Rhaeger, there was no personal conmunication between her and him. If Rhaeger had such wise and insight to see her character that making him not to make Cersei a future Queen, how could he lost the quality to see the monster in Gregor six years later? " they do hide their natures when necessary". Could anyone see a lamb in Gregor? I mean, even if a poor inner failed to see how abuse Gregor was, shouldn't a "who-could-have been one of the greatest king" Rhaeger see Gregor's inside, just like six years ago he see the inside of a 10-years-old Cersei?

As for the "Rhaegar has to knight Gergor to favor Tywin", I don't think someone who couldn't even refuse to excessively honoring a very unfit condidant made a good king. And when the so-called "someone" did do such thing, I tend to think if he isn't so dull to see the condidant's character, then he is too weak to refuse.

A young noblewoman, daughter of the Hand, set up to marry the Crown Prince will have some interactions with him, even if just within a group and able to observe each other. They will sit at the same table at meals at Casterly Rock (and possibly even in KL at times) and probably even exchange courtesies or more.

Rhaegar would have ample opportunity to form an opinion on Cersei - not that we know he did. Its entirely reader fantasy so far to claim that he did. All we know is that Aerys declined to marriage offer from Tywin, not of any involvement

Some lowly squire from another Lords domain will have no interactions with the Crown Prince at all. Tywin simply asks Rhaegar to Knight this young man, and Rhaegar does so because he's already been judged worthy by none other than the Hand of the King - and heck, any Knight could do it.

There is no likelihood, nor requirement, for Rhaegar to have ever even met Gregor before the act of knighting him. Nor would even be his 'due diligence' to do so. That would be Tywin's responsibility, as sponsor, and even to try to do his own 'due diligence' would be an insult to Tywin.

[Skagosi High Chef]

People aren't knighted because they are good people or chivalrous. They are knighted because they are great fighters that have performed well in battle. Rhaegar had to accept this fact when he decided to become a warrior himself. I am sure he is acquainted with knights in his own circle who are of noble and less than noble character. Gregor was an exceptional warrior, everybody knew he was going to be in the business of killing. He was of good birth and in service to a Great House. There was no way around knighting him. If Rhaegar was present when he either performed these deeds or at a ceremony where he was to be knighted, it would be appropriate for him to knight Gregor. As far as seeing something in Cersei, I do not think he had a choice in his marriage and securing the Dornish alliance was more important than appeasing Tywin, who the Mad King liked ribbing anyway.

[Schmendrick]

I don't think I have seen this mentioned before, though with the sheer volume of these treads it might have been.

“Not this time, Sam. I dreamed... in the black of night a man asks all the questions he dare not ask by daylight. For me, these past years, only one question has remained. Why would the gods take my eyes and my strength, yet condemn me to linger on so long, frozen and forgotten? What use could they have for an old done man like me?” Aemon’s fingers trembled, twigs sheathed in spotted skin. “I remember, Sam. I still remember.”

He was not making sense. “Remember what?”

“Dragons,” Aemon whispered. “The grief and glory of my House, they were.”

“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

Maester Aemon, in Sam's POV, AFFC

I like this quote because it works as R+L=J evidence on two levels. In addition to the dragons' shadows on the snow, we get the line about how Aemon's "brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one." Now Aemon is dreaming of dragons, just as his brothers did, and one of Aemon's dream-dragons has arguably killed him:

“He was too frail for such a long voyage,” Sam told Gilly on the forecastle, after another sip of the rum. “Jon should have seen that. Aemon was a hundred and two years old, he should never have been sent to sea . If he had stayed at Castle Black, he might have lived another ten years.”

[FrozenFire3]

I don't think I have seen this mentioned before, though with the sheer volume of these treads it might have been.

“Not this time, Sam. I dreamed... in the black of night a man asks all the questions he dare not ask by daylight. For me, these past years, only one question has remained. Why would the gods take my eyes and my strength, yet condemn me to linger on so long, frozen and forgotten? What use could they have for an old done man like me?” Aemon’s fingers trembled, twigs sheathed in spotted skin. “I remember, Sam. I still remember.”

He was not making sense. “Remember what?”

“Dragons,” Aemon whispered. “The grief and glory of my House, they were.”

“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

Maester Aemon, in Sam's POV, AFFC

I wonder, we see in D&E novellas that dragon-dreams are not necessarily of real dragons. Is Jon one of the dragons maester Aemon is dreaming about?

He talks of dragons, plural. This could mean:

• continuing to talk in plural because that is how the conversation started
• he is probably thinking of Dany's dragons, and there is three of them,
• maester Aemon could have dreamt of Rhaegar (and/or himself), in fact, he says that he remembers dragons, so I suspect that he stopped dreaming of at least some of them
• 'Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.'
• well, he could be one?
• Bloodraven, thought being able to feel their breath suggests some proximity greater than several days of travel, and I don't think mr. tree-god is going anywhere
• Jon Snow - because 'on the snow' is IMO a hint by the Author

He is probably talking of a lifetime of dreams in a single conversation, but I think that it is significant that the one(s?) talked in the present tense is of the read star bleeding (Dany reborn+D&V&R) and shadows on the snow (at the wall).

What do you think?

:bowdown: It's a great catch and it ties neatly into what we have been analysing on this thread for some time (disrupting/trolling posts aside LOL): the shadowy imagery associated to Jon.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.

Lots of contributions starting here and, tangentially, here.

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

[J. Stargaryen]

Last thread I mentioned how the part of tPatQ where Aemond flies off to Storm's End on Vhagar with a sapphire in place of his missing eye seemed like the constellation Ice Dragon come to life, and how that might denote a connection to Jon Snow. Well, right before that part it's noted that Aemond is a second son:

Then we must see that he leads them to our king,” Queen Alicent declared. Whereupon she sent for her second son.
Thus it was not a raven who took flight for Storm’s End that day, but Vhagar, oldest and largest of the dragons of Westeros. On her back rode Prince Aemond Targaryen, with a sapphire in the place of his missing eye. “Your purpose is to win the hand of one of Lord Baratheon’s daughters,” his grandsire Ser Otto told him, before he flew. “Any of the four will do. Woo her and wed her, and Lord Borros will deliver the stormlands for your brother. Fail—”

So, another possible connection to Jon Snow there. Though, in truth, "second son" is a recurring theme itself.

[FrozenFire3]

Btw, this R+L/ToJ related tidbit comes from the King o' the Board. Make of it what you will :unsure:

[FrozenFire3]

Last thread I mentioned how the part of tPatQ where Aemond flies off to Storm's End on Vhagar with a sapphire in place of his missing eye seemed like the constellation Ice Dragon come to life, and how that might denote a connection to Jon Snow. Well, right before that part it's noted that Aemond is a second son:

So, another possible connection to Jon Snow there. Though, in truth, "second son" is a recurring theme itself.

Love it.

[J. Stargaryen]

Not that there is a lot of serious debate on the issue of whether or not Rhaegar could have taken a second wife, but when the issue does arise, I think it's worth pointing out that GRRM justifies Aegon the Conqueror's polygamous marriage in basically the exact same way that we have been doing with Rhaegar's:

In 27 BC, Aegon the Conqueror was born to Lord Aerion Targaryen, the son of Daemion, and Lady Valaena of House Velaryon. He later married both his sisters, Visenya and Rhaenys. This was considered unusual although there was precedent for it.

Link.

By giving the same explanation as we do for poly-marriage, GRRM makes the case for R+E&L more likely, imo. After all, it was never the case that Valyrians or Targaryens went around taking multiple spouses on a regular basis, so it doesn't matter that there hadn't been one in a long time; precedent is all the reason one needs. Sound familiar?

Targaryen/Valyrian polygamy was always the exception rather than the rule. Something probably reserved for special occasions. Rhaegar, feeling like his life was intertwined with prophecy, would have viewed this as probably the most special occasion in history.

I don't think I have seen this mentioned before, though with the sheer volume of these treads it might have been.

“Not this time, Sam. I dreamed... in the black of night a man asks all the questions he dare not ask by daylight. For me, these past years, only one question has remained. Why would the gods take my eyes and my strength, yet condemn me to linger on so long, frozen and forgotten? What use could they have for an old done man like me?” Aemon’s fingers trembled, twigs sheathed in spotted skin. “I remember, Sam. I still remember.”
He was not making sense. “Remember what?”
“Dragons,” Aemon whispered. “The grief and glory of my House, they were.”
“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

Maester Aemon, in Sam's POV, AFFC

"shadows on the snow" is a nice catch.

I like this quote because it works as R+L=J evidence on two levels. In addition to the dragons' shadows on the snow, we get the line about how Aemon's "brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one." Now Aemon is dreaming of dragons, just as his brothers did, and one of Aemon's dream-dragons has arguably killed him:

And this is a really nice addition.

[Ygrain]

Yeah, some of us grasp how a precedent works :-)

I would only add that given Rhaegar's obsession with recreating the original trio, the idea of taking a second wife was basically presenting itself on a silver platter.