R+L=J v 67

[J. Stargaryen]

Yeah, some of us grasp how a precedent works :-)

I would only add that given Rhaegar's obsession with recreating the original trio, the idea of taking a second wife was basically presenting itself on a silver platter.

Lots of us do, sure. But not everyone does, and even some who do don't think it's a good enough answer. For those people, I think this provides a clear refutation of that notion.

Also, I think it puts a stop to any of the "polygamy fell out of use" type of arguments that pop up from time to time. It wasn't really ever "in use" to begin with. Just for special occasions. Like R+E&L.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't think I have seen this mentioned before, though with the sheer volume of these treads it might have been.

“Not this time, Sam. I dreamed... in the black of night a man asks all the questions he dare not ask by daylight. For me, these past years, only one question has remained. Why would the gods take my eyes and my strength, yet condemn me to linger on so long, frozen and forgotten? What use could they have for an old done man like me?” Aemon’s fingers trembled, twigs sheathed in spotted skin. “I remember, Sam. I still remember.”

He was not making sense. “Remember what?”

“Dragons,” Aemon whispered. “The grief and glory of my House, they were.”

“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

Maester Aemon, in Sam's POV, AFFC

I wonder, we see in D&E novellas that dragon-dreams are not necessarily of real dragons. Is Jon one of the dragons maester Aemon is dreaming about?

He talks of dragons, plural. This could mean:

• continuing to talk in plural because that is how the conversation started
• he is probably thinking of Dany's dragons, and there is three of them,
• maester Aemon could have dreamt of Rhaegar (and/or himself), in fact, he says that he remembers dragons, so I suspect that he stopped dreaming of at least some of them
• 'Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.'
• well, he could be one?
• Bloodraven, thought being able to feel their breath suggests some proximity greater than several days of travel, and I don't think mr. tree-god is going anywhere
• Jon Snow - because 'on the snow' is IMO a hint by the Author

He is probably talking of a lifetime of dreams in a single conversation, but I think that it is significant that the one(s?) talked in the present tense is of the read star bleeding (Dany reborn+D&V&R) and shadows on the snow (at the wall).

What do you think?

I never noticed Aemon used the plural version of the word. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, seems to me that Aemon is trying to say all four of them (Daeron, Aerion, Aegon and Aemon himself) dreamed of dragons. That Daeron dreamed of those sort of things, we know. If Aerion indeed dreamed of dragons, it could explain why he believed he could transform into a dragon if he drank a glass of wildfire. If Aegon dreamed about it, it could explain partly why Summerhal happened. And Aemon has just admitted he dreamed those same dreams.

Makes you wonder which other Targaryens had such dreamed, and how it affected everything. Could dreams like that have added something to Aerys' paranoia? To Rhaegars obsession? Will Jon, Dany or Aegon ever experience such?

[Ygrain]

Makes you wonder which other Targaryens had such dreamed, and how it affected everything. Could dreams like that have added something to Aerys' paranoia? To Rhaegars obsession? Will Jon, Dany or Aegon ever experience such?

I suggested that much a couple of threads ago. It is mentioned somewhere that he sang so sadly as if he was singing of the death of those he loved and that he was generally melancholic - if he was indeed plagued with prophetic dreams about the deaths of his friends and family, that would explain quite a lot. It would also be a terrible irony if those deaths were brought about by his attempt to prevent them - an ultimate case of self-fulfilling prophecy. - Given the role of prophecies in ASOIAF, I'd be very surprised if GRRM didn't play that card at least once. Cersei has already made Tyrion the very monster that she has feared her whole life even if he doesn't turn out to be the valonquar, and with the patterns of history repeating itself, there are bound to be earlier examples.

[Lyse Stark]

I never noticed Aemon used the plural version of the word. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, seems to me that Aemon is trying to say all four of them (Daeron, Aerion, Aegon and Aemon himself) dreamed of dragons. That Daeron dreamed of those sort of things, we know. If Aerion indeed dreamed of dragons, it could explain why he believed he could transform into a dragon if he drank a glass of wildfire. If Aegon dreamed about it, it could explain partly why Summerhal happened. And Aemon has just admitted he dreamed those same dreams.

Makes you wonder which other Targaryens had such dreamed, and how it affected everything. Could dreams like that have added something to Aerys' paranoia? To Rhaegars obsession? Will Jon, Dany or Aegon ever experience such?

I think Dany have definitely had one. But Jon's is much dicier than I think. With the First Men and Old Valyrian blood mixed, it is possible that Jon's dreams is a combination of both greenseer powers and dragon dreams.

[Han Snow]

:bowdown: It's a great catch and it ties neatly into what we have been analysing on this thread for some time (disrupting/trolling posts aside LOL): the shadowy imagery associated to Jon.

Lots of contributions starting here and, tangentially, here.

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

Yes, shadow is a word associated with Jon throughout the saga. Is it a good thing? I posted some time ago how it might lead to Jon becoming Vader rather then being Luke. It would be more fun for GRRM to write and execute a proper transformation from good to evil, of the ultimate prophecy that has gone totally wrong. So that in the end the one who was suppose to save them all, goes in the other direction, and someone as fallible and possibly corrupt as Tyrion or Jaime end up as a hero. I hope shadows and black are just references for the Night Watch and that Jon morally keeps being who he is, more or less...

Not that there is a lot of serious debate on the issue of whether or not Rhaegar could have taken a second wife, but when the issue does arise, I think it's worth pointing out that GRRM justifies Aegon the Conqueror's polygamous marriage in basically the exact same way that have been doing with Rhaegar's:

By giving the same explanation as we do for poly-marriage, GRRM makes the case for R+E&L more likely, imo. After all, it was never the case that Valyrians or Targaryens went around taking multiple spouses on a regular basis, so it doesn't matter that there hadn't been one in a long time; precedent is all the reason one needs. Sound familiar?

Targaryen/Valyrian polygamy was always the exception rather than the rule. Something probably reserved for special occasions. Rhaegar, feeling like his life was intertwined with prophecy, would have viewed this as probably the most special occasion in history.

I do subscribe to Rhaegar marrying Lyanna notion because of the words exchanged between Gerald Hightower and Ned at the TOJ, but in the Eddard chapter in AGOT just before that one his thoughts are these:

- “I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert

would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall,

but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises

he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d

paid to keep them. -

then just a few lines after this:

- She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet

that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night,

Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger

version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he

thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? -

Which would imply that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard. So when he was giving Lyanna his promise to keep Jon safe, he thinks that he is keeping a Targaryen bastard safe. Right? But that would mean that Eddard didn't properly digest the conversation he had with Gerold earlier and nobody bothered to tell him Rheagar married Lyanna later on, not even Lyanna herself, or Wylla or whoever was still there and knew of the marriage. Or that Rheagar didn't marry her but managed to convince the Kingsguard that they should stay and guard Lyanna and Jon no matter what (in spite of the fact that there was a living King (Viserys) that they should be with per their oath and prime duty).

p.s. to dear George:

Please write like the wind, swift and fast! Thank you! Your loyal fans!

[Lyse Stark]

Yes, shadow is a word associated with Jon throughout the saga. Is it a good thing? I posted some time ago how it might lead to Jon becoming Vader rather then being Luke. It would be more fun for GRRM to write and execute a proper transformation from good to evil, of the ultimate prophecy that has gone totally wrong. So that in the end the one was suppose to save them all, goes in the other direction, and someone as fallible and possibly corrupt as Tyrion or Jaime end up as a hero. I hope shadows and black are just references for the Night Watch and that Jon morally keeps being who he is, more or less...

I do subscribe to Rhaegar marrying Lyanna notion because of the words exchanged between Gerald Hightower and Ned at the TOJ, but in the Eddard chapter in AGOT just before that one his thoughts are these:

- “I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert

would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall,

but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises

he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d

paid to keep them. -

then just a few lines after this:

- She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet

that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night,Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger

version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he

thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? -

Which would imply that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard. So when he was giving Lyanna his promise to keep Jon safe, he thinks that he is keeping a Targaryen bastard safe. Right? But that would mean that Eddard didn't properly digest the conversation he had with Gerold earlier and nobody bothered to tell him Rheagar married Lyanna later on, not even Lyanna herself, or Wylla or whoever was still there and knew of the marriage. Or that Rheagar didn't marry her but managed to convince the Kingsguard that they should stay and guard Lyanna and Jon no matter what (in spite of the fact that there was a living King (Viserys) that they should be with per their oath and prime duty).

p.s. to dear George:

Please write like the wind, swift and fast! Thank you! Your loyal fans!

I think that Dany is on a Vader-like path, and Jon being the Luke figure.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, shadow is a word associated with Jon throughout the saga. Is it a good thing? I posted some time ago how it might lead to Jon becoming Vader rather then being Luke. It would be more fun for GRRM to write and execute a proper transformation from good to evil, of the ultimate prophecy that has gone totally wrong. So that in the end the one was suppose to save them all, goes in the other direction, and someone as fallible and possibly corrupt as Tyrion or Jaime end up as a hero. I hope shadows and black are just references for the Night Watch and that Jon morally keeps being who he is, more or less...

I do subscribe to Rhaegar marrying Lyanna notion because of the words exchanged between Gerald Hightower and Ned at the TOJ, but in the Eddard chapter in AGOT just before that one his thoughts are these:

- “I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert

would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall,

but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises

he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d

paid to keep them. -

then just a few lines after this:

- She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet

that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night,

Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger

version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he

thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? -

Which would imply that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard. So when he was giving Lyanna his promise to keep Jon safe, he thinks that he is keeping a Targaryen bastard safe. Right? But that would mean that Eddard didn't properly digest the conversation he had with Gerold earlier and nobody bothered to tell him Rheagar married Lyanna later on, not even Lyanna herself, or Wylla or whoever was still there and knew of the marriage. Or that Rheagar didn't marry her but managed to convince the Kingsguard that they should stay and guard Lyanna and Jon no matter what (in spite of the fact that there was a living King (Viserys) that they should be with per their oath and prime duty).

p.s. to dear George:

Please write like the wind, swift and fast! Thank you your loyal fans!

Lady Gwyn is taking a close look at this very passage, among others, in an upcoming essay. I won't spoil the contents. Just be on the lookout for her upcoming post/link. ;)

The current answer is basically that Jon had been raised as a bastard, not that he was one by birth.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Lady Gwyn is taking a close look at this very passage, among others, in an upcoming essay. I won't spoil the contents. Just be on the lookout for her upcoming post/link. ;)

The current answer is basically that Jon had been raised as a bastard, not that he was one by birth.

This is also how I take it. It's a case where a lie has been told for so long that you start believing it. Ned has raised Jon as a bastard and must continue to think of him that way, for both their sakes.

[Ygrain]

This is also how I take it. It's a case where a lie has been told for so long that you start believing it. Ned has raised Jon as a bastard and must continue to think of him that way, for both their sakes.

Actually, it doesn't even necessarily mean that he thinks of Jon as a bastard, only that he is well aware what stain he bestowed on him.

Also, the sentence might as well refer to what follows - a question at LF what he knows about Robert's bastards.

[Han Snow]

Lady Gwyn is taking a close look at this very passage, among others, in an upcoming essay. I won't spoil the contents. Just be on the lookout for her upcoming post/link. ;)

The current answer is basically that Jon had been raised as a bastard, not that he was one by birth.

Great, I will watch out for this.

Also, the sentence might as well refer to what follows - a question at LF what he knows about Robert's bastards.

Yes, that is definitely another way to interpret it and could well be the proper one in the end. But still, one has to wonder.

[Jory Cassel]

(...)

Also, the sentence might as well refer to what follows - a question at LF what he knows about Robert's bastards.

That's what I always assumed as well - Ned switching between present and past in his thoughts, presumably as Barra pleading reminds him of Lyanna.

I suppose it is meant to create the superficial impression that Jon is indeed a bastard though.

[MtnLion]

That's what I always assumed as well - Ned switching between present and past in his thoughts, presumably as Barra pleading reminds him of Lyanna.

I suppose it is meant to create the superficial impression that Jon is indeed a bastard though.

GRRM is a master at using his structure to obscure things when he wants to. This is one of those cases, nothing there says that Jon is a bastard, though the unwary reader would make that association.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I suggested that much a couple of threads ago. It is mentioned somewhere that he sang so sadly as if he was singing of the death of those he loved and that he was generally melancholic - if he was indeed plagued with prophetic dreams about the deaths of his friends and family, that would explain quite a lot. It would also be a terrible irony if those deaths were brought about by his attempt to prevent them - an ultimate case of self-fulfilling prophecy. - Given the role of prophecies in ASOIAF, I'd be very surprised if GRRM didn't play that card at least once. Cersei has already made Tyrion the very monster that she has feared her whole life even if he doesn't turn out to be the valonquar, and with the patterns of history repeating itself, there are bound to be earlier examples.

Ah, I only joined this discussion about one or two threads ago, so I guess I missed your post :p

But you are completely right. That would be complete irony, and it would make Rhaegers life even more sad.

[UVA]

I recently re-read this exchange in Dance between Jon and Stannis:

Jon took a knee. The king frowned at him, and rattled the parchment angrily. “Rise. Tell me, who is Lyanna Mormont?”

“One of Lady Maege’s daughters, Sire. The youngest. She was named for my lord father’s sister.”

This strikes me as not only very poignant but made me wonder if there are other instances in the text where Jon refers to or thinks specifically of Lyanna Stark. He repeatedly fantasizes about his mother, who she was, what she is/was like, etc. but I don't recall any other direct thought of Lyanna by Jon. Am I right about this seemingly trivial thing?

Actually, it doesn't even necessarily mean that he thinks of Jon as a bastard, only that he is well aware what stain he bestowed on him.

Also, the sentence might as well refer to what follows - a question at LF what he knows about Robert's bastards.

I tend to think it's both. So much of this chapter is defined by Ned's ruminations on fatherhood. Even though Rhaegar is widely considered virtuous he fathered a child on more than one woman, thus aligning him with Robert. Yet Ned simultaneously distinguishes Rhaegar from Robert's appetites in that, unlike Robert, he didn't seem the type to pick up prostitutes. Add to this the notion of child abandonment vis-a-vis Robert's treatment of his bastards juxtaposed with the promise (and its price) that Ned made to Lyanna -- to not abandon her child (Jon). It seems natural that Ned would recall Jon and think negatively on Jon's bastard status

[J. Stargaryen]

This is also how I take it. It's a case where a lie has been told for so long that you start believing it. Ned has raised Jon as a bastard and must continue to think of him that way, for both their sakes.

Yeah, not only this, but what Ygrain said too.

Actually, it doesn't even necessarily mean that he thinks of Jon as a bastard, only that he is well aware what stain he bestowed on him.

Also, the sentence might as well refer to what follows - a question at LF what he knows about Robert's bastards.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lady Gwyn is taking a close look at this very passage, among others, in an upcoming essay. I won't spoil the contents. Just be on the lookout for her upcoming post/link. ;)

The current answer is basically that Jon had been raised as a bastard, not that he was one by birth.

Thank you for the segue JS! :)

I have just posted a lengthy essay on this very topic on my blog. Because of the length I elected to post it offsite, but as it was inspired by content here I would welcome discussion here. Many thanks to yolkboy, Ygrain and J.Stargaryen for reading in advance and offering feedback and support :)

The basic conclusions will come as no surprise to RLJ regulars, but I think we might all be a bit surprised by what Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar have to tell us about his opinion of House Lannister.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I recently re-read this exchange in Dance between Jon and Stannis:

Jon took a knee. The king frowned at him, and rattled the parchment angrily. Rise. Tell me, who is Lyanna Mormont?

One of Lady Maeges daughters, Sire. The youngest. She was named for my lord fathers sister.

This strikes me as not only very poignant but made me wonder if there are other instances in the text where Jon refers to or thinks specifically of Lyanna Stark. He repeatedly fantasizes about his mother, who she was, what she is/was like, etc. but I don't recall any other direct thought of Lyanna by Jon. Am I right about this seemingly trivial thing?

I think you're right about this being the only time and, for that matter, about it being extremely poignant. This really underlines how bittersweet it will be if he finally discovers the truth, that she (his mother) was right under his feet (literally) his entire life. :bawl:

[Alia of the knife]

I think you're right about this being the only time and, for that matter, about it being extremely poignant. This really underlines how bittersweet it will be if he finally discovers the truth, that she (his mother) was right under his feet (literally) his entire life. :bawl:

I've always envisioned him finding his way back to her tomb, and looking upon her likeness with reverent eyes.

Also looking forward to your blog. 😀

[Lyse Stark]

You probably remember my post earlier. The Lannisters have the throne, but I predict it won't be for any longer. FAegon will kill Tommen, and Myrcella will be killed by a Faceless Man hired by the Iron Bank. The last blow to the Lannister clan will come from the Others, while the Tyrells will barely survive but have their wardenship stripped and given to a House that cares about people, not power.

And with my thoughts on the Lannisters's downfall;

Tywin's powerlust wound up destroying his house, and Joanna clearly saw it. She wanted her children to be happy, but Tywin denied it.

Now to the fact that he ordered the killing of Elia Martell, Rhaenys and Aegon VI, that was strike one against his House. Daenerys won't be able to forgive Tywin for what he did to the children, and I doubt that she will.

The second strike was Joffrey's beheading of Eddard Stark. This act angered the North and the Starks, and I think that the Lannisters and Freys are in for some karmic retribution by both the Starks and the Old Gods.

The third and last nail in the Lannisters's coffin is Cersei accusing Margaery of adultery. This results in the ruination of the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and I think that at this point, the Lannisters are nearly finished.

So my prediction is that the rest of the Lannister clan will be slaughtered by the Others, after Tommen and Myrcella is killed by Cersei's enemies. Cersei then burns King's Landing when Jon comes to claim the Iron Throne to help repel the WW, but Jaime strangles her. Both dies amongst the flames.

[yolkboy]

Thank you for the segue JS! :)

I have just posted a lengthy essay on this very topic on my blog. Because of the length I elected to post it offsite, but as it was inspired by content here I would welcome discussion here. Many thanks to yolkboy, Ygrain and J.Stargaryen for reading in advance and offering feedback and support :)

The basic conclusions will come as no surprise to RLJ regulars, but I think we might all be a bit surprised by what Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar have to tell us about his opinion of House Lannister.

I really enjoyed the essay Lady Gwyn!

I completely agree that Ned's notion that “For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen" is very strange coming so late on into aGoT, when there's so many times we know he's been in Ned's mind at that point.

It makes a lot of sense to me, in the way you've presented it, that in this instance it's actually the first time he's thought of Rhaegar in the context of being Jon's father. As you've highlighted, Ned having this thought directly after discussing Robert's bastards with Littlefinger, makes this very interesting indeed.

A fine read, which I recommend to others interested in RLJ.