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R+L=J v 67


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Great essay, Lady G. I especially like your interpretation of the "bastards" thought, which keeps getting, in my opinion, construed incorrectly and used to argue a conclusion that I don't think is intended. Reading it in the way you suggest, it does seem clear that it's the closest Ned ever comes to thinking of Rhaegar in terms of him as Jon's father. And if Rhaegar wouldn't frequent brothels and, by extension, father bastards, then obviously he wouldn't father a bastard on Lyanna either.


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Thank you for the segue JS! :)

I have just posted a lengthy essay on this very topic on my blog. Because of the length I elected to post it offsite, but as it was inspired by content here I would welcome discussion here. Many thanks to yolkboy, Ygrain and J.Stargaryen for reading in advance and offering feedback and support :)

The basic conclusions will come as no surprise to RLJ regulars, but I think we might all be a bit surprised by what Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar have to tell us about his opinion of House Lannister.

Since i have read your essay, I can say only one thing. I feel like those children who were denied candies for couple of days. And after the day of bitter poison of stupidity, this was such delight for me. Thank you for sharing this with us, Lady Gwyn. And for the future reference, please let me know when you write something this amazing.

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The basic conclusions will come as no surprise to RLJ regulars, but I think we might all be a bit surprised by what Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar have to tell us about his opinion of House Lannister.

Lady G, this was a delight to read and your unpacking of the "for the first time in years" dialogue is well-argued and the most convincing I've read. I really liked how you made explicit Ned's knowledge of Lannister atrocities committed against Rhaegar and his family, how Tywin and Co. have infected and criminalized Robert to a large extent and then connected this to Ned's anxiety in the brothel scene. It's the trigger for the ruminations that follow: Lyanna and his promise, Robert and his bastards, child abandonment, and finally Rhaegar. Great job Lady!

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Lady Gywn, excellent job. You probably remember my post about the Lannister's downfall being tied to their powerlust, and how they'll lose out to other, more honourable Houses. The atrocities that the Lannisters committed in my opinion, led the Gods to take away what they held dear; their heirs, their power, and finally, them. The wealth of the Lannisters will be divvied up between several Noble Houses in the West, with the one that prove themselves in the battle against the Others becoming the new Warden of the West.

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A thoughtful and thorough essay Lady G :bowdown:


The following passage is particularly enlightening:



Hidden beneath the overt memories and never mentioned explicitly, yet undoubtedly heightening Ned’s anxiety given the nature of his train of thought, is the fact that the child that he promised to protect from Robert’s fury and the Lannister willingness to enable him as a killer of innocents has been sent into the far North in the company of the very Lannister now accused of trying to harm Bran.


Surprising and yet logical. Thank you for highlighting this particular 'shade' of the (sub)text :)


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Hi all! Just want to say thanks to everyone for reading and for your nice comments! :blushing:



This is something that has been in the works for a long time, as I feel there are quite a few tricky connections in the "first time in years" passage. A few of them are repeatedly misconstrued especially, as Apple notes, the "bastard" line as evidence that Jon is Ned's bastard, which critical reading shows it clearly is not.







This bit from the essay:


"Here we are again, with a memory of Rhaegar paired with Lannister infamy, in both past and present. In this passage there is a clear connection between Robert’s acceptance of child slaying, Ned’s anxiety over it, the protection of innocents, and a young woman pleading for mercy. If Sansa was pleading for Lady’s life, what could Lyanna have been pleading for if not her son?"



Well done. All summed up by two sentences from AGoT.





I agree that is especially compelling, but can't take full credit for it, since it's been noted here before, most eloquently by Ygrain :)





Nice essay Lady Gwynhyfvar!



I like this conclusion and now definitely think it is true. What Ned does at that moment is he re-judges Rhaegar's character, something that he had to do at the TOJ for the first time and again comes to the same conclusion. That Rhaegar genuinely cared for his sister and that is how Jon came to be, yet this does not have to automatically mean that he married Lyanna and that Jon is legitimate, just that he was a child of love and not lust like Robert's bastards. Which is a legitimate interpretation of the text. Yet then, this line that seemingly connects Jon to being a bastard born and conceived out of lust does not fit:


Maybe the line was meant to throw the reader off the trail, or is a result of Ned's jumbled thought pattern. But when you combine all the conclusions from Ned's recollections of Rhaegar and the conversation he had with the Kingsguard, with ser Gerold who took a wow and held his duty above all else, it's major evidence for Jon being trueborn.






Yep. I actually think this is one of the most important conclusions to be drawn-- there is a clear transitive process: R+L =/= Lust, Bastards = Lust, therefore R+L =/= Bastard.






Well done. :bowdown:






Why? Because none of Rhaegar's children were bastards.



This is a fantastic addition to the case for Jon's legitimacy. Great job, Lady Gwyn. :thumbsup:





... and this!






A thoughtful and thorough essay Lady G :bowdown:


The following passage is particularly enlightening:




Surprising and so very logic at the same time. Thank you for highlighting this particular 'shade' of the (sub)text :)





Because I already believed in a lot of the other conclusions, besides the clear line that connects all of Ned's memories or Rhaegar to Lannister treachery this was the most enlightening bit for me. The realization of what Ned must have been feeling when Cat brought him the news about Tyrion's supposed attempt on Bran's life put that passage, and those that follow, in a whole new light for me. The child he promised to protect from the fate that befell his half siblings is now in company of a Lannister who appears to have made an attempt to kill a child? He must have been freaking out inside, yet unable to share his anxiety with Cat, his thoughts turn into a jumble of anxious memories-- Rhaenys and Aegon, Daenerys, Lyanna and Sansa pleading, Lady condemned and, in the face of it all, his best friend turning away. Quite chilling.


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Because I already believed in a lot of the other conclusions, besides the clear line that connects all of Ned's memories or Rhaegar to Lannister treachery this was the most enlightening bit for me. The realization of what Ned must have been feeling when Cat brought him the news about Tyrion's supposed attempt on Bran's life put that passage, and those that follow, in a whole new light for me. The child he promised to protect from the fate that befell his half siblings is now in company of a Lannister who appears to have made an attempt to kill a child? He must have been freaking out inside, yet unable to share his anxiety with Cat, his thoughts turn into a jumble of anxious memories-- Rhaenys and Aegon, Daenerys, Lyanna and Sansa pleading, Lady condemned and, in the face of it all, his best friend turning away. Quite chilling.

Put like this... I've shuddered.

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Poor Ned. :crying:



ASOIAF is such a grand tragedy that I can't help myself from wishing with all my heart that it has a happy ending; for the people of Westeros, for Starks, for Jon, for Dany, for Tyrion, for Jaime, for Brienne. Yet it can't. The heart does not want the bitter part of bittersweet, just the sweet...But the mind will devour the bitter and the sweet and enjoy it both immensely.


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Poor Ned. :crying:

ASOIAF is such a grand tragedy that I can't help myself from wishing with all my heart that it has a happy ending; for the people of Westeros, for Starks, for Jon, for Dany, for Tyrion, for Jaime, for Brienne. Yet it can't. The heart does not want the bitter part of bittersweet, just the sweet...But the mind will devour the bitter and the sweet and enjoy it both immensely.

Well said. Though, I wouldn't mind a happy ending for some of these characters...

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Because I already believed in a lot of the other conclusions, besides the clear line that connects all of Ned's memories or Rhaegar to Lannister treachery this was the most enlightening bit for me. The realization of what Ned must have been feeling when Cat brought him the news about Tyrion's supposed attempt on Bran's life put that passage, and those that follow, in a whole new light for me. The child he promised to protect from the fate that befell his half siblings is now in company of a Lannister who appears to have made an attempt to kill a child? He must have been freaking out inside, yet unable to share his anxiety with Cat, his thoughts turn into a jumble of anxious memories-- Rhaenys and Aegon, Daenerys, Lyanna and Sansa pleading, Lady condemned and, in the face of it all, his best friend turning away. Quite chilling.

I must be honest -- I have NEVER read it like that, but once you explain it that way, given Ned's train of thought, it becomes so crystal clear it's stunning.

I highly recommend that you post the essay in a separate thread here; I think it's different enough from the overall R+L=J argument, or at least specific enough to warrant a discussion on its own. I think it also deserves a wider audience than the R+L=J thread regs.

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I read the essay just now Lady Gwyn. Must say it is beautifully written. After spending so much time here I've always believed that the arguments that are to be given in support for R+L=J have all been supplied now. To see a poster finding new things in the text still, it really warrants respect. Keep up the good work. And that goes for all of R+L=J posse, you guys have lately gotten me engaged in this story arc, despite my personal dislike for Jon as a character.


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I read the essay just now Lady Gwyn. Must say it is beautifully written. After spending so much time here I've always believed that the arguments that are to be given in support for R+L=J have all been supplied now. To see a poster finding new things in the text still, it really warrants respect. Keep up the good work. And that goes for all of R+L=J posse, you guys have lately gotten me engaged in this story arc, despite my personal dislike for Jon as a character.

:grouphug: ASoIaF is such a rich, multilayered text: unraveling its secrets and intricacies is a most challenging and rewarding... endevour lol I couldn't ask more of a good reading.

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Lady G: For what it is worth, Jon was traveling with Benjen Stark as well as Tyrion. I doubt Eddard was that worried, with Jon protected by the First Ranger of the Night's Watch as well as Ghost.

That was an excellent essay, BTW

Thank you Ser!

As for Benjen, don't think I had forgotten. But Bran was behind Winterfell's high walls with a castle guard to protect him, and he would still have been dead had his mother and his wolf not been at hand. Iirc, Jon did spend time alone with Tyrion on their journey, so Benjen wasn't as omnipresent as one might think. Yea, thank goodness for the wolves, but I think the Starks were only just realising their value as protectors. At any rate, I was applying the emotions of a parent to the scenario, which are not always completely logical. Worried, anxious, and frantic are all words that would describe how I would feel if my child and one of my nephews were involved in a similar situation, in spite of all the trappings of protection.

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He can't found a new dynasty. He took the black.

And, he wouldn't have a woman, either, like Ygritte? ;)

Stannis has offered to release him. Robb has released him. If he can only do what he considers his duty, to defend the realms of men, by becoming the one ruler of Westeros, I don't see him refusing.

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And, he wouldn't have a woman, either, like Ygritte? ;)

Stannis has offered to release him. Robb has released him. If he can only do what he considers his duty, to defend the realms of men, by becoming the one ruler of Westeros, I don't see him refusing.

Don't forget how it might be that he most likely conveniently died at the end of aDwD... What kind of inpact this will have, we will learn in WoW I guess.

Also, should the Wall fall, the NW will no longer exist, and thus, Jon will be free of his vows.

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