R+L=J v 67

[Ygrain]

Also, should the Wall fall, the NW will no longer exist, and thus, Jon will be free of his vows.

That, as well. No NW, lots of little Stargaryens :P

[Skagosi High Chef]

It says nowhere in the vows that they are attached to the Wall. He was given a command by Half-Hand to do what he had to do, including kill him. R+L=J very well may be true, he may be the prince that was promised. But if he takes a wife and a crown, he goes against everything that makes him what he is. Who are you wanting him to have a cheesy romance with Dany? It would also be insulting to Ygritte. I think he got to have his romance and now he has to move on to more important things. If he were going to break his vows he should have done that to preserve House Stark. It would just make him a hypocrite.

[Ygrain]

The point is that there may occur a situation in which the NW is no longer needed.

[Skagosi High Chef]

The NW will always be needed. 8,000 years from now the others may come again. They were defeated once, it took them this long to return, somebody will always have to look out for snarks and grumkins. If the Wall falls, it must be rebuilt. But if Jon goes on and rules as king and marries Dany or who-ever. Won't that be such a sweet, happy ending. He had no consequences for any of his actions and plenty of steamy scenes to boot. He should just leave the Wall now and tour brothels with Tyrion. He loses his soul if he breaks his vows. He can be Lord Commander or he can be a villain with love interests.

[The guy from the Vale]

How can he be Lord Commander if he keeps getting shanked by his officers? What good would that do?

And I can certainly see scenarios where the NW in its current form ceases to exist - and while a new NW might be founded after, I can easily see it being reestablished with less restricting vows.

And, again: Jon has already broken parts of this vow to keep its spirit. I fully expect him to break all of it if it means he sees no other way to protect the realms of men.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Just found your essay Lady G. So well done!

I especially liked how you clearly pointed out the true worry in Ned's mind regarding a Lannister traveling with Jon to the Wall.

I also was stunned over your explanation of Ned's thinking of Rhaegar as Jon's father ... you laid it out so well. I have wondered over that forever..and now its clear as a bell. Thanks for that.

The most poignant part of your essay to me is below because Jon although Rhaegar's son is Ned's son by nurture.

He loves his little sister Arya so much and notice the parallel to Ned's thoughts and emotions with Barra and her mother to Jon's with Alys Karstark.

Here we have Ned making a promise to a young mother regarding her child and suspiciously, it reminds him of the promises he made to his dying sister. All the way back in Eddard I, he recalled that moment:

”Promise me, she had cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life…”

Not only does the promise remind Ned of his sister, but the young girl’s reaction is highly evocative of Lyanna’s:

She smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart right out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

Jon at Alys Karstark's wedding. He is trying to save her from her uncle.

The girl (Alys K) smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Yea, he broke his vows with Ygritte. But he left her. Borderline broke them for what the guys 'shanked' him for. And vows have been broken in Mole Town for centuries. A broken vow is a broken vow. I agree. As far as the whole world changing and the NW being abolished, will the Citadel have no need for vows either? How about the KG? How far do you want to take it? Do you just want Jon to have some romance? Or do you want him to rust on the throne after defeating the Others? Or do you just want him to be happy? He is not going to have a happy ending. Some heroes don't get the girl and the glory. He will be an unsung hero. The song of ice and fire, is a sad song. It's the blues baby.

[MtnLion]

To get an answer SHC, you need to assess what the actual threat is, and how much of a threat it is. We haven't been given much more than the Red Woman's perception that it would be a world ending threat. GRRM has suggested that it is a world ending threat, too, since one of his suggested endings is Tyrion surveying a world full of tombstones. The Prince that was Promised may be a savior, or something else. The Red Woman thinks a savior, but I believe that she will be darker than any of her shadow babies, soon. She will likely take Stannis down with her, but not before Daenerys exposes his lie. Is it possible that Jon may need to unite the seven kingdoms to defeat the others? I think so. The best way to unite them is to become their ruler. Actually only Jon may be the only person alive able to unite all of the seven kingdoms, from a political perspective. It will be an interesting yarn, and I don't think that Jon will perceive it as a sweet deal. I think his having to rule could be the bitter part of the ending.

[Skagosi High Chef]

How can he unite from a political perspective? He does not have a claim to the throne. It does not matter if he is Targstark because there would be no way to prove it. It will only matter that he is a Targstark because of some power it gives him. He may be powerful enough to take the throne and marry Cersei, but should he? After defeating whatever it is, and we assume evil is defeated, or the book ends by the world ending, not even Jon Snow will know that the evil will never return.

[Ygrain]

How can he unite from a political perspective? He does not have a claim to the throne. It does not matter if he is Targstark because there would be no way to prove it. It will only matter that he is a Targstark because of some power it gives him. He may be powerful enough to take the throne and marry Cersei, but should he? After defeating whatever it is, and we assume evil is defeated, or the book ends by the world ending, not even Jon Snow will know that the evil will never return.

So many assumptions...

No way to prove it? How do you know? You have HR, you have the Daynes, you have Lyanna's toomb... all these and a couple more may provide some kind of proof; you have a manifestation of dragonbonding ability on top of that, plus a couple ore twists that GRRM might have up his sleeve.

No-one knows that the evil will never return? And if, say, both R'hllor and the Others depart where they came from a la Babylon 5? Or achieve a balance? Or are exterminated?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

How can he unite from a political perspective? He does not have a claim to the throne. It does not matter if he is Targstark because there would be no way to prove it. It will only matter that he is a Targstark because of some power it gives him. He may be powerful enough to take the throne and marry Cersei, but should he? After defeating whatever it is, and we assume evil is defeated, or the book ends by the world ending, not even Jon Snow will know that the evil will never return.

Do you really, honestly think GRRM would have this plot point with Jon if there was no way in-story to prove it? Just because you haven't thought of a way to prove it doesn't mean he hasn't.

And where are you getting that he should, would or could marry Cersei?

[Skagosi High Chef]

So many assumptions...

No way to prove it? How do you know? You have HR, you have the Daynes, you have Lyanna's toomb... all these and a couple more may provide some kind of proof; you have a manifestation of dragonbonding ability on top of that, plus a couple ore twists that GRRM might have up his sleeve.

No-one knows that the evil will never return? And if, say, both R'hllor and the Others depart where they came from a la Babylon 5? Or achieve a balance? Or are exterminated?

I don't know. I also don't know what HR is. But the word of the Daynes will count for what, Lyanna's tomb does what? If he can bond with a dragon is something we 'don't know' and can't prove either. Sure GRRM can twist it where it works, but that works for a lot of other possibilities you would not like as well. If a balance is achieved then that is kind of what happened 8,000 years ago, if you kill them all, how do you know there aren't more of them waiting in the ice for a few millennia later? I agree with so many things you say on, on so many subjects, but sometimes your desire for Jon to have this happy ending keeps you from recognizing other possibilities. What I'm saying is it will not be an issue of him being the rightful king. It is an issue of him being the prince that was promised and that doesn't need proof, he will just do his duty with that, he won't get to enjoy a later time of ruling. Cersei was sarcasm.

[addicted to snow]

I can't believe that people really expect for Jon to end up on the Iron Thrown!!! especially people who have read the series more than once… Jon could not even handle his Command of the Night's Watch, how can anyone expect him to rule the whole of Westeros?

Jon's character is about to undergo some drastic changes & the Jon we see near the end of the Series will be Nothing like the Jon that we know from ADWDs. Jon is going to gain a lot of power & probably play a key role in providing resolution to the story, but he will be a savage, unjust character. Ultimately, Arya will put him to rest by sticking him with the pointy end...

[Chatty Duelist]

I can't believe that people really expect for Jon to end up on the Iron Thrown!!! especially people who have read the series more than once… Jon could not even handle his Command of the Night's Watch, how can anyone expect him to rule the whole of Westeros?

Jon's character is about to undergo some drastic changes & the Jon we see near the end of the Series will be Nothing like the Jon that we know from ADWDs. Jon is going to gain a lot of power & probably play a key role in providing resolution to the story, but he will be a savage, unjust character. Ultimately, Arya will put him to rest by sticking him with the pointy end...

Though i do suspect the Jon will die at the Wall never have seen the IT.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Jon at Alys Karstark's wedding. He is trying to save her from her uncle.

The girl (Alys K) smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart.

Thanks Lady Arya's Song! This is an extremely poignant addition-- Jon is Ned's son by nurture, and his connection of this young woman he has been asked to help to his little sister Arya harks directly back to Ned & Barra's mother/Lyanna. You can even take it one step further with the similarity of Arya/Lyanna. Truly, the layers in this tale are magnificent! :)

[FrozenFire3]

Amazing, so many people with direct access to GRRM's thoughts and notes. I'm... green with envy. Lol, no. Once you go Black you never go back ;)

HIS story. Wherever he takes it, I'm in for the ride.

[Han Snow]

And, again: Jon has already broken parts of this vow to keep its spirit. I fully expect him to break all of it if it means he sees no other way to protect the realms of men.

Exactly this. What good are rules and vows if because of them people are suffering and dying. And I have a feeling that certain parts of the Night's Watch vows were added later on, not when the order was created.

[Han Snow]

Yea, he broke his vows with Ygritte. But he left her. Borderline broke them for what the guys 'shanked' him for. And vows have been broken in Mole Town for centuries. A broken vow is a broken vow. I agree. As far as the whole world changing and the NW being abolished, will the Citadel have no need for vows either? How about the KG? How far do you want to take it? Do you just want Jon to have some romance? Or do you want him to rust on the throne after defeating the Others? Or do you just want him to be happy? He is not going to have a happy ending. Some heroes don't get the girl and the glory. He will be an unsung hero. The song of ice and fire, is a sad song. It's the blues baby.

A king can live only long enough to save his kingdom.

I can't believe that people really expect for Jon to end up on the Iron Thrown!!! especially people who have read the series more than once… Jon could not even handle his Command of the Night's Watch, how can anyone expect him to rule the whole of Westeros?

Jon's character is about to undergo some drastic changes & the Jon we see near the end of the Series will be Nothing like the Jon that we know from ADWDs. Jon is going to gain a lot of power & probably play a key role in providing resolution to the story, but he will be a savage, unjust character. Ultimately, Arya will put him to rest by sticking him with the pointy end...

Good to know that you have established a telepathic link with George!!! Do tell us what happens in the end and when the next book comes out!?

[MtnLion]

A king can live only long enough to save his kingdom.

Hmmm, just ran across this quote from Kit Harrington about how he would like to see Jon Snow die:

How he would like to see his character die, should it come to that: “It would be a Sunday afternoon. Jon would be 85 years old, resting his head peacefully … on the side of a big iron chair.”

[Han Snow]

^ I do hope Kit's wish comes true.