R+L=J v 67

[Ser Leftwich]

Thank you for the segue JS! :)

I have just posted a lengthy essay on this very topic on my blog. Because of the length I elected to post it offsite, but as it was inspired by content here I would welcome discussion here. Many thanks to yolkboy, Ygrain and J.Stargaryen for reading in advance and offering feedback and support :)

The basic conclusions will come as no surprise to RLJ regulars, but I think we might all be a bit surprised by what Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar have to tell us about his opinion of House Lannister.

He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

AGoT p.199

This bit from the essay:

"Here we are again, with a memory of Rhaegar paired with Lannister infamy, in both past and present. In this passage there is a clear connection between Robert’s acceptance of child slaying, Ned’s anxiety over it, the protection of innocents, and a young woman pleading for mercy. If Sansa was pleading for Lady’s life, what could Lyanna have been pleading for if not her son?"

Well done. All summed up by two sentences from AGoT.

[WhiteOwl18]

Thank you for the segue JS! :)

I have just posted a lengthy essay on this very topic on my blog. Because of the length I elected to post it offsite, but as it was inspired by content here I would welcome discussion here. Many thanks to yolkboy, Ygrain and J.Stargaryen for reading in advance and offering feedback and support :)

The basic conclusions will come as no surprise to RLJ regulars, but I think we might all be a bit surprised by what Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar have to tell us about his opinion of House Lannister.

I read your essay, and I have to say it's very good. It is a very accurate analysis of Ned's train of thought. Well done! :thumbsup:

[Han Snow]

Nice essay Lady Gwynhyfvar!

Surely if Ned believed that Rhaegar had fathered a bastard child on his beloved sister, he would not reach such a charitable conclusion?

I like this conclusion and now definitely think it is true. What Ned does at that moment is he re-judges Rhaegar's character, something that he had to do at the TOJ for the first time and again comes to the same conclusion. That Rhaegar genuinely cared for his sister and that is how Jon came to be, yet this does not have to automatically mean that he married Lyanna and that Jon is legitimate, just that he was a child of love and not lust like Robert's bastards. Which is a legitimate interpretation of the text. Yet then, this line that seemingly connects Jon to being a bastard born and conceived out of lust does not fit:

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

Maybe the line was meant to throw the reader off the trail, or is a result of Ned's jumbled thought pattern. But when you combine all the conclusions from Ned's recollections of Rhaegar and the conversation he had with the Kingsguard, with ser Gerold who took a wow and held his duty above all else, it's major evidence for Jon being trueborn.

The essay also made me think about the Lannisters and Jon's words;

“It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn.”

Which I believe Jon will not actually want to do on what remains of house Lannister in the end.

[Alia of the knife]

I think you're right about this being the only time and, for that matter, about it being extremely poignant. This really underlines how bittersweet it will be if he finally discovers the truth, that she (his mother) was right under his feet (literally) his entire life. :bawl:

I just read your essay, and it was as always, wonderful.

It answered many questions for me, particularly the "why" of after all these years, he would now only be thinking of Rhaegar.

I had initially associated the trauma of the past and present as the common denominator for his thoughts of Rhaegar.

Ned thinking of Rhaegar for the first time within the context of Rhaegar as Jons father ties up the loose ends for me.

[MtnLion]

Very nice, Lady G. When Ned is leaving the place where he met Barra, Robert's latest bastard, he is thinking of her. He compares the character of Robert with the character of Rhaegar, which he has not thought on for many years. Then we get this line:

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

which may have a relationship to the status that Ned has placed Jon into, but is more targetted at Barra and her status. Barra, after all, is the daughter of a king but is truly going to end up just a gutter rat.

[Ygrain]

TA for the shoutout, Lady G, I was honoured by your request.

Concerning remembering Rhaegar:

I think that remembering Rhaegar as Jon's father is a very poignant explanation but I think that there might be present also an element of remembering him as Lyanna's spouse, which would make the comparison between him and Robert even more fitting.

[Moondancer]

Been mulling an idea or two and need an information that might help, so I thought I should ask here - except for Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel, is there any other precedent involving polygamy?

[Ygrain]

Been mulling an idea or two and need an information that might help, so I thought I should ask here - except for Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel, is there any other precedent involving polygamy?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy

"There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be)."

[J. Stargaryen]

Thank you for the segue JS! :)

I have just posted a lengthy essay on this very topic on my blog. Because of the length I elected to post it offsite, but as it was inspired by content here I would welcome discussion here. Many thanks to yolkboy, Ygrain and J.Stargaryen for reading in advance and offering feedback and support :)

The basic conclusions will come as no surprise to RLJ regulars, but I think we might all be a bit surprised by what Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar have to tell us about his opinion of House Lannister.

Well done. :bowdown:

“For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.”

Why? Because none of Rhaegar's children were bastards.

This is a fantastic addition to the case for Jon's legitimacy. Great job, Lady Gwyn. :thumbsup:

[Moondancer]

Ygrain, thanks. :)

[Ygrain]

Ygrain, thanks. :)

You're welcome - to the forums, as well :-)

[MtnLion]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy

"There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be)."

A few later instances, one comes to mind, Rhaegar and his wives . . . ;)

[Moondancer]

:D

I don't think it would be beneficial if Rhaegar had only Aegon I and his son to choose from : remember, to engage in polygamy, you are bound to offend, if covertly, a high lord of two. The nobles are of a prickly sort, the more precedents the better. It would help Jon's claim.

[Lyse Stark]

And I believe that Jon's upbringing as a bastard has greatly benefited him. He is more humble, and less entitled. All the other rulers that believed they were entitled to the Iron Throne will fall, and Jon will become the favorite of the people, as he was raised the same way they were; as humble people with duties and responsibilities.

[MtnLion]

:D

I don't think it would be beneficial if Rhaegar had only Aegon I and his son to choose from : remember, to engage in polygamy, you are bound to offend, if covertly, a high lord of two. The nobles are of a prickly sort, the more precedents the better. It would help Jon's claim.

Ah, you are making this a mandatory repost. ;)

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle if these three had been allowed to enter into it.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for the Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend the king (then). This lends some credance to the curse of Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

• Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. Arthur is confident in the outcome.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which argues that Lyanna was never dishonored, but more likely freely participated.

[Moondancer]

Sorry you had to put some effort in that repost. I wasn't saying Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna. That's very likely, from my standing point.

I was reffering to the actual claim : the legality,the process of proving the claim, rebutting the opposing side, etc.

Precedents are necessary. The incest was frequent enough that it came to be seen as commonplace if odd. We need the same for polygamy.

Yes, the KGs were at the Tower of Joy, despite all, a great clue for us,the readers. But will it be for the high lords? Would they trust the testimony from Howland Reed for example? "ha, the frogeater! Can a man who hides in the swamps be a honourable man!? He cannot be trusted!" - Can you imagine some high lord saying that? I can. If TPaTQ taught me anything is that the opposing side would bite at anything to win.

Yes, we know. But, what about the reality of it? How would the revelation of Jon's heritage manifest itself? What actions would follow and what kind of consequences would it produce? Practical, real issues?

Would Jon's claim be stronger if Dany trusted his claim to begin with? If she crowned him like Visenya crowned Aegon I?

Or would it suffice for Jon to save the kingdom and the throne would be his? (a personal favourite of mine, if for nothing but for the poetic aspect of it)

To paraphrase GRRM - what about Aragon 's policy of ruling? - I say, what about the claim? You want to talk the claim, you need precedents, you need proof. Precedents are great.

I am talking about the actual sides to ruling, and to arriving at that point.

[MtnLion]

Sorry you had to put some effort in that repost. I wasn't saying Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna. That's very likely, from my standing point.

I was reffering to the actual claim : the legality,the process of proving the claim, rebutting the opposing side, etc.

<snip>

I was looking for an excuse. Ygrain cringes whenever I post that, because of the naysayers it seems to bring out of the woodwork.

Well, now, not claim; just take as a matter of necessity; then find out that he is Rhaegar's son is something I have always thought would happen. Odds are pretty slim that any of the houses, great or small are going to oppose Jon, especially if he saves them from extinction. There is a precedent, and only one is necessary to be considered a precedent. Incest is considered to be a bad thing, but no one ever expresses an opinion about polygamy, let alone opposes it.

[Ygrain]

I was looking for an excuse. Ygrain cringes whenever I post that, because of the naysayers it seems to bring out of the woodwork.

Well, now, not claim; just take as a matter of necessity; then find out that he is Rhaegar's son is something I have always thought would happen. Odds are pretty slim that any of the houses, great or small are going to oppose Jon, especially if he saves them from extinction. There is a precedent, and only one is necessary to be considered a precedent. Incest is considered to be a bad thing, but no one ever expresses an opinion about polygamy, let alone opposes it.

I don't cringe at you posting it, I cringe at what usually prompts you to do so, in expectation of an inevitable round of ToJ debate :bang:

[Moondancer]

Ok, then. :)

Polygamy is indeed a tricky situation. It brings about shame. "Is my daughter truly a queen or just a lover? Is her son a bastard in truth?" It implies hierarchy : if there is one king, and the rest of the high houses are equals among themselves, why is one high born daughter Queen no.1 and the other Queen no.2? Is the Martell Queen the queen, and yes, the Northern girl is that too but only in name? Stuff like that.

These words may sound silly to us, but not to them. The nobles are not familiar to the idea because they don't apply it and don't understand it : the psychological aspect of the matter is important, that engenders actions - treasons for example, or scorn.

The Faith performed both incestuous and polygamous ceremonies. Gods, the incest is so unnatural, but the Faith allows it, so did the dragons, once. But what about the polygamy? The polygamy digs deeper. It feeds on the high born egos. ;) Egos are as ravenous as the actual dragons. Ego seethes in the back of your mind.

Ned took in consideration a few facts, before he decided to act upon the revelation of Cersei's doings, not just one Baratheon-Lannister marriage but a few. As I said, the more the better.

I feel that in the case of Jon's bonding with a dragon, that the supernatural part of the process would kick enough awe in the nobles' arses so they would remain as faithful and obedient as they can be. A dragon would crown the dragon, if you will.

[Alia of the knife]

Ok, then. :)

Polygamy is indeed a tricky situation. It brings about shame. "Is my daughter truly a queen or just a lover? Is her son a bastard in truth?" It implies hierarchy : if there is one king, and the rest of the high houses are equals among themselves, why is one high born daughter Queen no.1 and the other Queen no.2? Is the Martell Queen the queen, and yes, the Northern girl is that too but only in name? Stuff like that.

These words may sound silly to us, but not to them. The nobles are not familiar to the idea because they don't apply it and don't understand it : the psychological aspect of the matter is important, that engenders actions - treasons for example, or scorn.

The Faith performed both incestuous and polygamous ceremonies. Gods, the incest is so unnatural, but the Faith allows it, so did the dragons, once. But what about the polygamy? The polygamy digs deeper. It feeds on the high born egos. ;) Egos are as ravenous as the actual dragons. Ego seethes in the back of your mind.

Ned took in consideration a few facts, before he decided to act upon the revelation of Cersei's doings, not just one Baratheon-Lannister marriage but a few. As I said, the more the better.

I feel that in the case of Jon's bonding with a dragon, that the supernatural part of the process would kick enough awe in the nobles' arses so they would remain as faithful and obedient as they can be. A dragon would crown the dragon, if you will.

I think you have sumnarized aptly the issues I have had with this topic in terms of its acceptance, not that it wasnt done, or that Rhaegar didnt do it, but a practice that created further insulation of the Targaryen from the rest of the Westerosi.

As I've said before, I think by the time the rebellion happened, Rhaegar and Lyanna were the excuse, not the cause.