R+L=J v 67

[JNR]

The Woods Witch accompanied Jenny of Oldstones to court. The Ghost of High Heart remembers her Jenny in one breath with Summerhall and tears. No, it hasn't been completely spelled out, but my level of certainty for the Woods Witch being the Ghost of High Heart is along the same lines as my certainty that Roose Bolton was the man in the pink cloak who killed Robb.

Yes, I'm inclined to assume the same thing, and for the same reasons.

And, furthermore, I think the woods witch was right (that the PtwP does emerge from the line of Aerys and Rhaella).

But I don't think the PtwP and AAR are the same entity. If that proves to be true, GRRM will certainly have fooled me.

[Lyse Stark]

Yes, I'm inclined to assume the same thing, and for the same reasons.

And, furthermore, I think the woods witch was right (that the PtwP does emerge from the line of Aerys and Rhaella).

But I don't think the PtwP and AAR are the same entity. If that proves to be true, GRRM will certainly have fooled me.

I think Azor Ahai Reborn can bear both fiery and icy aspects.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as shed appeared. [46]

I think the black "ice" is obisidian.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes, I'm inclined to assume the same thing, and for the same reasons.

And, furthermore, I think the woods witch was right (that the PtwP does emerge from the line of Aerys and Rhaella).

But I don't think the PtwP and AAR are the same entity. If that proves to be true, GRRM will certainly have fooled me.

I agree I think they arent the same, it looks more likely that the Targaryens took the AAR prophecy and tried to apply it to the PTWP prophecy.

Also the Red Priests in Essos have a different meaning to the prophecy than Mel, theirs is more political, involving the downfall of the Old Blood in Volantis rather than the others. Mel seems to think they are the same.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree I think they arent the same, it looks more likely that the Targaryens took the AAR prophecy and tried to apply it to the PTWP prophecy.

Also the Red Priests in Essos have a different meaning to the prophecy than Mel, theirs is more political, involving the downfall of the Old Blood in Volantis rather than the others. Mel seems to think they are the same.

And the red priests can't be putting their own spin on it? Why is their spin more accurate than anyone else's?

[The guy from the Vale]

More to the point, Aemon and Mel seem to be using both terms interchangeably; Aemon immediately thinks of AA as tPtwP, and Mel interprets his question on tPtwP as a question about AA. If there was some kind of misunderstanding between them, I'd be willing to consider these two different entities, but so far I don't see that.

Of course they might be different after all, but I'd say it's more useful to look at them as the same for the time being. We hardly know enough about both entities to keep them separate anyway...

[addicted to snow]

Which is why I give a bigass eye roll whenever anyone says that Dany is AA/tPtwP because Aemon said so.

i too dish out eye-rolls to Dany-Lovers on a routine basis.

[Alia of the knife]

I've always suspected that the different cultures have their own interpretation of prophesy just as in our own world every culture has it's own "end-of-world" beliefs.

And as far as Jon goes, the fact that he is not Neds son, but a Targaryen will up-end everything.
The population that believes this is still quite small.
At a party last night, I was discussing with a friend our favorite shows and GOT came up.
The friend believes Jon is Roberts son with Lyanna based on the show because he hasn't read the books.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

And the red priests can't be putting their own spin on it? Why is their spin more accurate than anyone else's?

It could be. But there are some things we have to keep in mind.

The Ghost of High Heart told the Targaryens a prophecy and that prophecy is TPTWP, which is a modern prophecy, since the GHH has visions. AAR is an ancient prophecy and it seems less likely that the red priests know about the PTWP prophecy to take a spin off it.

[Grape Jackanape]

More to the point, Aemon and Mel seem to be using both terms interchangeably; Aemon immediately thinks of AA as tPtwP, and Mel interprets his question on tPtwP as a question about AA. If there was some kind of misunderstanding between them, I'd be willing to consider these two different entities, but so far I don't see that.

Of course they might be different after all, but I'd say it's more useful to look at them as the same for the time being. We hardly know enough about both entities to keep them separate anyway...

Something that's always bothered me about Aemon & Rhaegar's merging of AA/PtwP is their focus on literal dragons & Targ dynasty, but very, very little attention seemed to get paid to Lightbringer or the "darkness" & "great enemies" & whatnot. Why did Rhaegar not seek a Lightbringer, especially as an armed rebellion was happening? A magic sword would've been useful, no? :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It could be. But there are some things we have to keep in mind.

The Ghost of High Heart told the Targaryens a prophecy and that prophecy is TPTWP, which is a modern prophecy, since the GHH has visions. AAR is an ancient prophecy and it seems less likely that the red priests know about the PTWP prophecy to take a spin off it.

We don't know that the PtwP prophecy only goes back to the Ghost. For all we know it's a much older prophecy and she only added onto it or narrowed down the parameters. I was never under the impression that it originated with her, only that she gave additional information about it.

[The guy from the Vale]

Something that's always bothered me about Aemon & Rhaegar's merging of AA/PtwP is their focus on literal dragons & Targ dynasty, but very, very little attention seemed to get paid to Lightbringer or the "darkness" & "great enemies" & whatnot. Why did Rhaegar not seek a Lightbringer, especially as an armed rebellion was happening? A magic sword would've been useful, no? :)

I think the focus was more on the "waking dragons" part, particularly because the power of house Targaryen had been based on them, not on magic swords. I might be wrong though...

[addicted to snow]

IIRC, wasn't the Woods Witch said to be a stunted thing, as well?

She is a Dwarf.

--

& she did predict that the ptwP'ed would come from Aries & Rhaella… But when you consider her audience, it is not too difficult to see that she had no need to expand upon the very specific complication to this prophecy… A complication that has been foreshadowed by GRRM via the most subtle of hints.

I think you are looking in all the wrong places for your possible tptwP'ed candidates.

[Grape Jackanape]

I think the focus was more on the "waking dragons" part, particularly because the power of house Targaryen had been based on them, not on magic swords. I might be wrong though...

Oh, I agree they looked at the whole prophecy through an intensely Targ-centered lens, even conflating it w the Conquest. It's just that given that it inspired Rhaegar to do everything from improve his marshal prowess to seek to procreate outside of his marriage, it's it a bit of a head-scratcher that they disregarded the legendary weapon in the whole thing.

[Lyse Stark]

I think the focus was more on the "waking dragons" part, particularly because the power of house Targaryen had been based on them, not on magic swords. I might be wrong though...

And Jon is the stone dragon that needs to be awoken, as evidenced by by the fact that he is unaware of his true origins.

"... King's blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It's nonsense. Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own."

And the quote about Silverwing can as easily be construed to mean a silver dragon(Rhaegar) leaving behind a potential egg (Jon) behind at the Wall. ;)

[The guy from the Vale]

I agree, but it seems even the Targs at the time of Daeron II and Aerys I had largely forgotten the prophetic meaning of dragons, interpreting them as real more often than not...

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

We don't know that the PtwP prophecy only goes back to the Ghost. For all we know it's a much older prophecy and she only added onto it or narrowed down the parameters. I was never under the impression that it originated with her, only that she gave additional information about it.

I think we do in fact know that it is a much older prophecy that was merely referenced by the woods witch:

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess [...] The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke...

[Alia of the knife]

Came across this link and thought it interesting, particularly the artwork.

Enjoy.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=aerys+targaryen+deleted+scene&go=&qs=bs&form=QBVR#view=detail&mid=771CA7085452359DA7A5771CA7085452359DA7A5

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

We don't know that the PtwP prophecy only goes back to the Ghost. For all we know it's a much older prophecy and she only added onto it or narrowed down the parameters. I was never under the impression that it originated with her, only that she gave additional information about it.

I think its her. She has red eyes, I forgot the quote but I remember somewhere in the books, it says powerful green seers have red eyes another example is BR.

Which is one of the reasons why I think they are different, it seems odd that someone that seems to be connected to the old gods would put emphasis on a prophecy that is dragon centric. I think the prophecy has more to do with the first men and the only reason the GoHH went to the Targs is probably because they were the monarchs and it would be easier for a king/queen with first men blood for the long night (whole realm behind him) then just a Lord stark. That could be why Rhaegar looked for a northern girl.

Im iffy on the whole child born from Aerys and Rhaella, because GoHH prophecies are always metaphoric and its strange how this one was soo straight forward and maybe the Targs misinterpreted it.

I might be wrong on all of it but just my thoughts the prophecies.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think we do in fact know that it is a much older prophecy that was merely referenced by the woods witch:

That could also still be the Targaryens trying to apply an older prophecy to a new one they just found out.

I have issue with the WW using dragon prophecies whiles she seems like a greenseer from the north.

[Lyse Stark]

That could also still be the Targaryens trying to apply an older prophecy to a new one they just found out.

I have issue with the WW using dragon prophecies whiles she seems like a greenseer from the north.

I certainly think that the GotHH was part-CoTF, and that her mother was also a greenseer from the CoTF.