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I found this interview in TIME from April 18th, 2011 written by James Poniewozik.


I think it really encapsulates what Martin is trying to emphasize, and given he's said himself he's a "low magic" fantasy writer, I think the foibles of the human heart from the characters not realizing what they had until it was gone and wanting someone they cannot have is the tragedy.


Or the idea that "evil" is ever so obvious and that "bad" people can never be redeemed, as well as "good" people can't make fatal mistakes.




GRRM: "As much as I love historical fiction, my problem with historical fiction is that you always know what’s going to happen. You know, if you’re reading about the War of the Roses, say, you know that the little princes are not going to come out of that tower. Fantasy, of course, doesn’t have that constraint. You can still have that driving force, which I think is one of the things that people read books for, what’s gonna happen next? I love this character, but god, is he gonna live, is he gonna die? I wanted that kind of suspense."



Pontiewozik: "There’s also the more complicated morality of the characters and situations in your book. It’s not just that people who seem bad might turn out to be better than they seemed, but that also there’s sometimes this theme that honor can be kind of a handicap."



GRRM: "Yeah, I’ve always been attracted to grey characters. I’ve always taken it as a code William Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech from the early ‘50’s, where he said that the human heart in conflict with the self was the only thing worth writing about. And I think that’s true.


The battle between good and evil is a theme of much of fantasy. But I think the battle between good and evil is thought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions that we make. It’s not like evil dresses up in black clothing and you know, they’re really ugly. These are some of the things that Tolkien did; he made them work fabulously, but in the hands of his imitators, they become total clichés. I mean the orc-like creatures who always do dress in black and … they’re really ugly and they’ve got facial deformities or something. You can tell that if somebody’s ugly, he must be evil. And then Tolkien’s heroes are all very attractive people and all that, of course, again this become cliché in the hands of the Tolkien imitators."


Read more: GRRM Interview Part 2: Fantasy and History | TIME.com http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/#ixzz2p10PdBGY


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And outer beauty can hide ugly truths, just as it was shown in Cersei's POV. She think she is clever, beautiful and perfect, but to other she comes across as cruel, power hungry and domineering. And she is alienating people right and left, so by the time her downfall is complete, Cersei will be known as the Mad Queen, or some other epithet like Cersei the Paranoid.

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"if only Rhaegar had married me as the gods intended......."

If only, if only.

... he would have whispered Lyanna on their wedding night.

- THrowing this in just to make this fabulous line live forever :-)

GRRM: "Yeah, I’ve always been attracted to grey characters. I’ve always taken it as a code William Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech from the early ‘50’s, where he said that the human heart in conflict with the self was the only thing worth writing about. And I think that’s true.

The battle between good and evil is a theme of much of fantasy. But I think the battle between good and evil is thought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions that we make. It’s not like evil dresses up in black clothing and you know, they’re really ugly. These are some of the things that Tolkien did; he made them work fabulously, but in the hands of his imitators, they become total clichés. I mean the orc-like creatures who always do dress in black and … they’re really ugly and they’ve got facial deformities or something. You can tell that if somebody’s ugly, he must be evil. And then Tolkien’s heroes are all very attractive people and all that, of course, again this become cliché in the hands of the Tolkien imitators."

The Tolkien fan here cannot help but point out that Sauron used to be very beautiful when he was still walking around as Annatar or that e.g. Saruman's appearance is not ugly in the least. The ugliness is generally a result of corruption (Melkor, Sauron, orcs), and I dare point out that we might actually see something similar with Cersei. Not sure if GRRM is going to take her as far as Marquise de Merteuil, to end up with her soul on her face, but it is not impossible, IMHO, as she is to lose all that she values.

All this talk makes me wish that all these prophecies in the end will just prove to be a made up BS. But that's just wishful thinking perhaps. :dunno:

Perhaps. I think that the strength of the prophecies is that they come true in unexpected ways, with a price tag too high to pay.

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All this talk makes me wish that all these prophecies in the end will just prove to be a made up BS. But that's just wishful thinking perhaps. :dunno:

I hate prophecies. It's tolerable in ASoIaF because the author uses them as character motivation rather than as a linchpin for the entire plot. But to do that correctly, those prophecies have to come true in a manner that no one expects. That's I think it's rather pointless to try and use them to predict the plot. They are useful in a discussion or speculation of how characters will react or have reacted to them, but it's hard to do one without the other.

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Greenseers/CotF have been known to work with first men and I was simply ststing that it seemed odd that if she had a vision of a destined hero it would come from valyrian blood rather than first men.

The fact that the hero is born from Aerys and Rhaella's line doesn't mean that he is 100% Valyrian. It takes two to tango ;) and quite more than two if we take into account past non-Valyrian blood injections (Martell, Arryn, Hightower etc.). Jon is not only blood of Valyria and First Men, he has also blood of the Andals and of the Rhoynar. He was born far in the South, but grew up in the North. Ice and Fire. It seems to me the perfect mix. The ultimate embodiment of balance.

Perhaps. I think that the strength of the prophecies is that they come true in unexpected ways, with a price tag too high to pay.

I agree. Prophecies, visions, profetic dreams tend to be more reliable than not throughout the saga (Daenys the Dreamer, Daeron the Drunk, Daemon II Blackfyre,The Ghost of High Heart, The HotU visions etc.). It's just that in the best tradition of Greek Tragedy, prophecies walk twisted paths on irony shaped legs. And any human intervention to thwart or direct them only sets them up on their inscrutable path. Ananke is a... witch :lol:

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I agree. Prophecies, visions, profetic dreams tend to be more reliable than not throughout the saga (Daenys the Dreamer, Daeron the Drunk, Daemon II Blackfyre,The Ghost of High Heart, The HotU visions etc.). It's just that in the best tradition of Greek Tragedy, prophecies tend to walk twisted paths on irony shaped legs. And any human intervention to thwart or direct them only sets them up on their inscrutable path. Ananke is a... witch :lol:

Yep. Oedipus and Croesus send their regards :-)

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Ok help me out, how does going to Maggy or Maggy coming to you matter at all? A vision is a vision.

As for the theory argument, if I may. That's not a theory it's an assumption or a series of assumptions. A theory is an assertion based on given facts, supporting evidence, cause and effect, etc... I highly recommend people to flush out ideas they have for theories and research them as a lot of time they debunk there own theory the more they study it.

You are a hoot! I remember two, maybe three threads . . . then, "OMG, I shot POTUS!"

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I found this interview in TIME from April 18th, 2011 written by James Poniewozik.

I think it really encapsulates what Martin is trying to emphasize, and given he's said himself he's a "low magic" fantasy writer, I think the foibles of the human heart from the characters not realizing what they had until it was gone and wanting someone they cannot have is the tragedy.

Or the idea that "evil" is ever so obvious and that "bad" people can never be redeemed, as well as "good" people can't make fatal mistakes.

GRRM: "As much as I love historical fiction, my problem with historical fiction is that you always know what’s going to happen. You know, if you’re reading about the War of the Roses, say, you know that the little princes are not going to come out of that tower. Fantasy, of course, doesn’t have that constraint. You can still have that driving force, which I think is one of the things that people read books for, what’s gonna happen next? I love this character, but god, is he gonna live, is he gonna die? I wanted that kind of suspense."

Pontiewozik: "There’s also the more complicated morality of the characters and situations in your book. It’s not just that people who seem bad might turn out to be better than they seemed, but that also there’s sometimes this theme that honor can be kind of a handicap."

GRRM: "Yeah, I’ve always been attracted to grey characters. I’ve always taken it as a code William Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech from the early ‘50’s, where he said that the human heart in conflict with the self was the only thing worth writing about. And I think that’s true.

The battle between good and evil is a theme of much of fantasy. But I think the battle between good and evil is thought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions that we make. It’s not like evil dresses up in black clothing and you know, they’re really ugly. These are some of the things that Tolkien did; he made them work fabulously, but in the hands of his imitators, they become total clichés. I mean the orc-like creatures who always do dress in black and … they’re really ugly and they’ve got facial deformities or something. You can tell that if somebody’s ugly, he must be evil. And then Tolkien’s heroes are all very attractive people and all that, of course, again this become cliché in the hands of the Tolkien imitators."

Read more: GRRM Interview Part 2: Fantasy and History | TIME.com http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/#ixzz2p10PdBGY

Wow! I was just thinking about it when I turned the PC on. Well, more or less.

My thoughts were about the original feellings or the characters and how others, mostly their parents, had shaped them, and I fleshed it on Lannisters and Starks. Most of us are used to think of Lannisters as the bad guys and Starks as the good ones. In the end, Jaime and Ned are not so so different, and I'm not sure who'd be the best person should they had the same raising.

Jaime admired the Sword of the Morning, who spurred him. He was the only one who cared for his little stunt brother. And...

This is the RLJ thread, and this absolutely OT. So...

People on the other side of the display may sometimes be stubborn or annoying, but you can discuss with them only if and because they're there. Let me wish all of you a

happy new year!

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I am not stating anything irrelevant to the discussion.

You stated that Maggy was Essosi and Cersei was Andal. And I stated Cersei went to her willingly. The GoHH went to the targs no one seeked her out. Meaning it was something important not just for the targs but probably to her aswell, in Cersei's case Maggy didn't seek her out so it wouldn't be important to her only Cersei.

Greenseers/CotF have been known to work with first men and I was simply ststing that it seemed odd that if she had a vision of a destined hero it would come from valyrian blood rather than first men.

I see what you are saying. But, who cares what blood is involved in the background of a vision of the hero that saves mankind? If it is that important why worry about it?

The Ghost of High Heart is old, even for a Child of the Forest. She was close to Jenny of Oldstones, as she recalls her fondly. Jenny was wed to Duncan Targaryen, so it is sensible that she would frequent the Targaryen household. That would give her ample opportunity to relay important information regarding the Prince that was Promised.

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:

All this talk makes me wish that all these prophecies in the end will just prove to be a made up BS. But that's just wishful thinking perhaps. :dunno:

I think given Martins feelings on such things, I suspect the point he will make is the foolhardiness of trying to manipulate prophesy and trying to fashion ones life by them.

Whatever Rhaegar was doing or hoped to achieve, I think the moment he actually lived and loved for perhaps the first time in his life at the Tower of Joy, (he did give its name after all) :), was the moment he fulfilled prophesy and begetting Jon.

... he would have whispered Lyanna on their wedding night.

- THrowing this in just to make this fabulous line live forever :-)

The Tolkien fan here cannot help but point out that Sauron used to be very beautiful when he was still walking around as Annatar or that e.g. Saruman's appearance is not ugly in the least. The ugliness is generally a result of corruption (Melkor, Sauron, orcs), and I dare point out that we might actually see something similar with Cersei. Not sure if GRRM is going to take her as far as Marquise de Merteuil, to end up with her soul on her face, but it is not impossible, IMHO, as she is to lose all that she values.

Perhaps. I think that the strength of the prophecies is that they come true in unexpected ways, with a price tag too high to pay.

I completely agree and you even see it with Sméagol/Gollum as well as Aerys who himself had been handsome and charming at one time before corruption and madness set in.

The interesting thing about this article was that it really cleared up some misinformation about Martins views on Tolkien. And I completely agree with him in terms there are some things that cannot be replicated.

He is a fan of Tolkien and what Tolkien did, but only Tolkein could do what he did.

As he said, in the hands of his imitators, a lot of that became a cliche' which is why he himself focused on something different, which was that grey area of humanity, and truer words were never spoken about the battle between good and evil being fought within the confines of the human heart.

The struggle of what you want and what is right, which many times are conflicted.

And totally agree on Cersei :D

Your photos are STUNNING. I hope this is more than a hobby. :)

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I think given Martins feelings on such things, I suspect the point he will make is the foolhardiness of trying to manipulate prophesy and trying to fashion ones life by them.

Whatever Rhaegar was doing or hoped to achieve, I think the moment he actually lived and loved for perhaps the first time in his life at the Tower of Joy, (he did give its name after all) :), was the moment he fulfilled prophesy and begetting Jon.

That's what my gut feeling tells me, as well :-)

Your photos are STUNNING. I hope this is more than a hobby. :)

Thank you, dear. It is indeed just a hobby as I'm no professional, and more than just a hobby as it gives me great comfort.
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Wow! I was just thinking about it when I turned the PC on. Well, more or less.

My thoughts were about the original feellings or the characters and how others, mostly their parents, had shaped them, and I fleshed it on Lannisters and Starks. Most of us are used to think of Lannisters as the bad guys and Starks as the good ones. In the end, Jaime and Ned are not so so different, and I'm not sure who'd be the best person should they had the same raising.

Jaime admired the Sword of the Morning, who spurred him. He was the only one who cared for his little stunt brother. And...

This is the RLJ thread, and this absolutely OT. So...

People on the other side of the display may sometimes be stubborn or annoying, but you can discuss with them only if and because they're there. Let me wish all of you a

happy new year!

Yes, I think sometimes the impression is, or you are led to believe that Ned himself had a lot to do with Jaimies angst after Neds rejection.

In our world, you would take Jaimie aside and say while it's never good to kill your king, in this instance, he did what he had to do and saved KL, (pats him on the back).

Instead, the young lion needs therapy.

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All this talk makes me wish that all these prophecies in the end will just prove to be a made up BS. But that's just wishful thinking perhaps. :dunno:

Well I thought in the begining they would be just that, but to many have come true. For a series that is suppose to be low magic, there is a lot of magic in it. It's just different from most typical fantasy, the astral projection, the warging, greenseeing, tree merging, bringing the dead back to life in 3 different ways, visions, dragons, Others and prophecies. Oh forgot Magic candles the powers of the faceless men and what me be actual gods. Oh forgot Giants and all those other magic animals like Krakens. Oh and magic weapons. For a low magic world thats a lot of damn magical stuff.

Some the characters also fall in line with typical fantasy cliches. Jon, if this thread is to be believed then Rhaegar. Though I think some people confuse Jon who is far more the everyman character is like Rhaegar or what they think Rhaegar is which is that Poster boy fantasy hero. But there is a twist I think yet to play out. Tyrion is often said to be the ugliest character in the books may turn out to be the great hero even though he is a very grey character which would seem to fit into Martins beliefs and we know he is Martins fav. But Rhaegar who is often said to be the most Beautiful character in the books may turn out to have more of a dark side than people think so that he falls back in line with much more of a grey character.

Jon falls into that Ivanhoe class of character, good at lots of things but not great at anything, he is not tall, he is pretty average looking (as described in the books) and he makes mistakes. Dany who is very beautiful also falls in that grey area, has a lot of good points and a lot of bad points.

I am starting to wonder if Rhaegar and Tyrion are going to be opposite sides of the same grey coin.

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