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R+L=J v 67


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Jon cut his left leg from under him and he fell with a curse and crash



[From Bran's godswood visions:] She [Lyanna] slashed the boy across the thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout.



Who knew Jon could fight like a girl? Jon also manages to channel some of his mother when he defends Sam from three guys in the yard with a tourney sword like Lyanna defended HR from three squires with a tourney sword.


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Jon cut his left leg from under him and he fell with a curse and crash

[From Bran's godswood visions:] She [Lyanna] slashed the boy across the thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout.

Who knew Jon could fight like a girl? Jon also manages to channel some of his mother when he defends Sam from three guys in the yard with a tourney sword like Lyanna defended HR from three squires with a tourney sword.

Nice catch! Especially that part with defending against three, Why not two or four, indeed?

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Jon cut his left leg from under him and he fell with a curse and crash

[From Bran's godswood visions:] She [Lyanna] slashed the boy across the thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout.

Who knew Jon could fight like a girl? Jon also manages to channel some of his mother when he defends Sam from three guys in the yard with a tourney sword like Lyanna defended HR from three squires with a tourney sword.

Nice!!

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My first post on this forum I'm reading for months..



I totally agree with R+L=J theory but haven't found something more that what had ben mentioned here.



What I found is that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn : we are beyond reasonable doubt on this statement since Cat had this conversation with Rob's wife in the season 3 of the show, explaining that she had been punished for breaking her oath of taking the chosen one as her own son.



For me, Cat was somehow a prophete : I think the one wolf/one child was addressed to her as much as Ned. This is a mirror of how she treated Jon like a paria and forced him to remain a shadow, a ghost (the wolf is a perfect mirror of his personality, and that's where his name came from, according to the discussion between Jon and Benjen in the first book). I don't have any idea of how she'd be useful in the futur, but her resurrection by R'hllor shows she will be on the chessboard at the very end.


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My first post on this forum I'm reading for months..

I totally agree with R+L=J theory but haven't found something more that what had ben mentioned here.

What I found is that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn : we are beyond reasonable doubt on this statement since Cat had this conversation with Rob's wife in the season 3 of the show, explaining that she had been punished for breaking her oath of taking the chosen one as her own son.

For me, Cat was somehow a prophete : I think the one wolf/one child was addressed to her as much as Ned. This is a mirror of how she treated Jon like a paria and forced him to remain a shadow, a ghost (the wolf is a perfect mirror of his personality, and that's where his name came from, according to the discussion between Jon and Benjen in the first book). I don't have any idea of how she'd be useful in the futur, but her resurrection by R'hllor shows she will be on the chessboard at the very end.

A very interesting notion in that Jon, being treated as a pariah in his own home, identifies with misfits better than he does with the nobility. His list of friends include Grenn, Pypar, Satin and Samwell Tarly, and I think he would have more friends in Gendry, Mya and the Sand Snakes, as they know the stigmata of being misfits.

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What I think I failed to explain in my last message is that the show just took a shortcut for the character of Jon in the season 3. They didn't used flashback for some reasons and then, couldn't explain some parts of the intrigue (Age of Heroes, PTWP or even AA). The story of Cat just put the show back on the track of WatD2/AA reborn and who knows, Prince that was promised ?


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My first post on this forum I'm reading for months..

I totally agree with R+L=J theory but haven't found something more that what had ben mentioned here.

What I found is that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn : we are beyond reasonable doubt on this statement since Cat had this conversation with Rob's wife in the season 3 of the show, explaining that she had been punished for breaking her oath of taking the chosen one as her own son.

For me, Cat was somehow a prophete : I think the one wolf/one child was addressed to her as much as Ned. This is a mirror of how she treated Jon like a paria and forced him to remain a shadow, a ghost (the wolf is a perfect mirror of his personality, and that's where his name came from, according to the discussion between Jon and Benjen in the first book). I don't have any idea of how she'd be useful in the futur, but her resurrection by R'hllor shows she will be on the chessboard at the very end.

What I think I failed to explain in my last message is that the show just took a shortcut for the character of Jon in the season 3. They didn't used flashback for some reasons and then, couldn't explain some parts of the intrigue (Age of Heroes, PTWP or even AA). The story of Cat just put the show back on the track of WatD2/AA reborn and who knows, Prince that was promised ?

I think the conversation in the show was more to make Cat more lovable. She has made a lot of enemies amongst the asoiaf fans because of her treatment of Jon.

Nothing similar has been in the books, and so, I doubt it can be used as an argument. The show differs from the books. Important details have been changed, like Loras not joining the KG in the show.

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I think the conversation in the show was more to make Cat more lovable. She has made a lot of enemies amongst the asoiaf fans because of her treatment of Jon.

I don't like what they did with Cat in the show. Part of what makes ASOIAF excellent, is that with the characters there are going to be times when you root for them and times when you want to yell at them. I didn't like Cat's attitude towards Jon, but her attitude was realistic, unlike in the show. How does one think a woman would feel towards a boy her husband supposedly fathered on another woman a year into their marriage and was brought back to their home to be raised alongside her children?

Jon helped to keep Cat's character grey, and remind the reader that she is still a flawed human being with a few prejudices. What the they did was whitewash her character like they did Cersei and Dany.

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I don't like what they did with Cat in the show. Part of what makes ASOIAF excellent, is that with the characters there are going to be times when you root for them and times when you want to yell at them. I didn't like Cat's attitude towards Jon, but her attitude was realistic, unlike in the show. How does one think a woman would feel towards a boy her husband supposedly fathered on another woman a year into their marriage and was brought back to their home to be raised alongside her children?

Jon helped to keep Cat's character grey, and remind the reader that she is still a flawed human being with a few prejudices. What the they did was whitewash her character like they did Cersei and Dany.

Exactly.

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like Loras not joining the KG in the show.

I think they kept this for the next season, but yes, I was really disappointed. I'd loved seeing him escort Sansa in the KG armor, as in the book.

I don't like what they did with Cat in the show. Part of what makes ASOIAF excellent, is that with the characters there are going to be times when you root for them and times when you want to yell at them. I didn't like Cat's attitude towards Jon, but her attitude was realistic, unlike in the show. How does one think a woman would feel towards a boy her husband supposedly fathered on another woman a year into their marriage and was brought back to their home to be raised alongside her children?

Jon helped to keep Cat's character grey, and remind the reader that she is still a flawed human being with a few prejudices. What the they did was whitewash her character like they did Cersei and Dany.

And I totally agree about that, but also see it in the prophetic way of R'hllor pushing pieces where they belongs for the Westrocalypse. And IMO, this would mean punish (Cat, Ygritte for shooting him, Jon's foes at the wall..) and reward people who helped/took care of him. Sam (who had dragonglass, a weapon of R'hllor and CH's help..), but also Arya, saved by Sandor (saved by R'Hllor in his trial, touched by fire ?) in order to save her.. And I'm sure we can dig and find more connections.

He is AA and there's also a chance for him to be TPTWP. I can only think of (R'hllor making) the whole ASOIAF universe revolving around Jon.

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This is one of the reasons I still hold out hope for my geographical take on the "dragon has three heads" question. Aegon and his sisters only conquered two of the three sections of the continent of Westeros. Not to mention, there were plenty of other dragon riders up until the Dance.

On top of that, it would fit hand in glove with the one dragon, three heads interpretation. Where you would have one king ruling over three (kingdoms?) distinct pieces of land. Though I can't say if it is more likely, it is a more tangible version of the three heads-as-aspects than I am aware of.

There are some intriguing clues, imo. Thematically, the upcoming WftD2 being one. Where the inhabitants of the LbtW, the Others, will do battle against the humans, who live on the other two sections of the continent. There is also the anthropomorphizing of Westeros that GRRM has done; the God's Eye, Isle of Faces, the Fingers, the (broken) Arm of Dorne, and most notably the section of land that connects the North and the 'South' is called the Neck.

In case you were thinking that this shameless plug was off topic, not so fast. ;) I would direct your attention back to our favorite former location, the Tower of Joy. Because during Ned's fever dream he tells us: They were seven, facing three. Almost like a showdown between the past/present and future. So, I wonder if this couldn't possibly tie in to something I mentioned two paragraphs up; i.e., that Jon is meant to become king of the entire continent of Westeros, not just Dorne to the Wall. And that it's even possible that the 7K might become known as the Three Kingdoms: the 'South', North and LbtW. Further, if you take a look at a map of Westeros, it looks to me like it's possible that the three sections could end up being separated by water. Consider how narrow the lands of the Neck and the Wall are compared to the rest of the continent.

Getting back to the ToJ, you have Jon's interests being represented by three, while the status quo – not in dynastic terms, mind you – is represented by Ned's seven. That day the seven won, and the institution of the 7K remained in tact. Perhaps when Jon finally 'wins' the 7K will cease and we will see the formation of the 3K, or the kingdom, whatever it is called, will be comprised of three bodies of land, each separated from each other by water.

“There must be one more. ... The dragon has three heads.”

---

Happy New Year! :cheers:

Your theory is interesting, but it has too many what-ifs, if one of them is wrong everything falls in shambles.

Aegon probably just conquered Westeros because he was a conqueror.

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Jon cut his left leg from under him and he fell with a curse and crash

[From Bran's godswood visions:] She [Lyanna] slashed the boy across the thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout.

Who knew Jon could fight like a girl? Jon also manages to channel some of his mother when he defends Sam from three guys in the yard with a tourney sword like Lyanna defended HR from three squires with a tourney sword.

Nice.

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Your theory is interesting, but it has too many what-ifs, if one of them is wrong everything falls in shambles.

Aegon probably just conquered Westeros because he was a conqueror.

I agree that it has a lot of what-ifs, but I'm not really sure I agree with the bolded. This idea is, imo, not an intricately pieced together theory, but rather a big picture notion.

Of course there are clues. It's not all thematic supposition. Why is the Neck called the Neck? What is a neck connected to? (Besides a body, smartasses. :P) A neck is connected to a head.

And Rhaegar says: “There must be one more. ... The dragon has three heads.” And we all think he's talking about his children, but are we sure the three heads are meant to be people? We already know that it can't be Rhaegar's children, since only one or two of them live. So there is already reason to doubt the correctness of his statement.

But maybe he's talking about the "heads" of Westeros. “There must be one more. ... The dragon has three heads.” Rhaegar is telling us that, whatever the "heads" are, the dragon already has two of them. It just needs one more. Now consider his words while looking at a map of Westeros. Oh, and don't forget about the upcoming WftD2. :)

Anyway, this is pretty OT already, so it's probably best to move any further comments to the aforementioned thread.

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I don't like what they did with Cat in the show. Part of what makes ASOIAF excellent, is that with the characters there are going to be times when you root for them and times when you want to yell at them. I didn't like Cat's attitude towards Jon, but her attitude was realistic, unlike in the show. How does one think a woman would feel towards a boy her husband supposedly fathered on another woman a year into their marriage and was brought back to their home to be raised alongside her children?

Jon helped to keep Cat's character grey, and remind the reader that she is still a flawed human being with a few prejudices. What the they did was whitewash her character like they did Cersei and Dany.

I differ just a tad on Cat.

She says herself when she married Ned she barely knew him much less was in love with him, and even expected him to possibly sleep around.

She just didnt expect him to bring the results home. Maybe I'm a different animal, but I would have respected him for taking responsibility for his "lapse," and actually would be a factor in me loving him.

But I think its ironic that if she had trouble with Ned, Brandon likely would have made her miserable.

Punishing a child for the sins of the father is just low, particularly when they didn't even know each other at the time of his misstep.

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What I found is that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn : we are beyond reasonable doubt on this statement since Cat had this conversation with Rob's wife in the season 3 of the show, explaining that she had been punished for breaking her oath of taking the chosen one as her own son.

For me, Cat was somehow a prophete : I think the one wolf/one child was addressed to her as much as Ned. This is a mirror of how she treated Jon like a paria and forced him to remain a shadow, a ghost (the wolf is a perfect mirror of his personality, and that's where his name came from, according to the discussion between Jon and Benjen in the first book). I don't have any idea of how she'd be useful in the futur, but her resurrection by R'hllor shows she will be on the chessboard at the very end.

Never, ever, take anything from the show as gospel concerning the books.

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My first post on this forum I'm reading for months..

I totally agree with R+L=J theory but haven't found something more that what had ben mentioned here.

What I found is that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn : we are beyond reasonable doubt on this statement since Cat had this conversation with Rob's wife in the season 3 of the show, explaining that she had been punished for breaking her oath of taking the chosen one as her own son.

Oh? And where are Jon's dragons, and what did Jon do of any significance whatever under the bleeding star? When you can answer questions like that without resorting to kludges like "metaphorical dragons" that someone like Archmaester Marwyn or Maester Aemon would reject out of hand, your theory deserves attention, and not before.

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Oh? And where are Jon's dragons, and what did Jon do of any significance whatever under the bleeding star? When you can answer questions like that without resorting to kludges like "metaphorical dragons" that someone like Archmaester Marwyn or Maester Aemon would reject out of hand, your theory deserves attention, and not before.

While I don't agree with that poster that the show proves anything about Jon one way or the other, I don't think you should reject the possibility of metaphorical dragons out of hand, either. Two dragon prophecies in the D&E series did turn out to be metaphorical. And I should hope also that you've figured out by now that stuff that's outright solved in the series is usually solved incorrectly.

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While I don't agree with that poster that the show proves anything about Jon one way or the other, I don't think you should reject the possibility of metaphorical dragons out of hand, either. Two dragon prophecies in the D&E series did turn out to be metaphorical. And I should hope also that you've figured out by now that stuff that's outright solved in the series is usually solved incorrectly.

Firstly, what I wrote is an "on present evidence" claim: it is still possible that our author will find a way to change the picture to point to Jon (or perhaps even Aegon, tho' that seems implausible at present). He did after all insert Melisandre's vision to muddy the waters and contrast with Benerro and Moqorro. And he did not put in anything about either reading their flames to look for confirmation of their identification of Daenerys as the promised one of the prophecy. Further if Feast and Dance had been merged in the way that he intended, I would not be surprised if he had put Aemon's "The dragons prove it" in a chapter near the Melisandre chapter. The six year gap between the two books may have contributed to a misleading impression of what he intended to present. That is to say GRRM has not made the matter as cut and dried as you write.

One more point: Aemon probably knew about the dragon dreams we are told about in "The Hedge Knight"; and he certainly knew what a metaphorical dragon is: he was one after all, and he knew quite a few of them. Yet it is not until he has word of real ones that he is prepared to point to someone as fulfilling the prophecy. (And it also seems to matter for him that Dany was born on Dragonstone when he says that she was born amidst salt and smoke. A few tears and smoke from a fire or even "smoke" from a the contact of the cold with fresh wounds would probably not have counted for him).

I am not saying that Aemon's statements should be taken as definitive, but I am arguing that your idea that Aemon would have changed his mind if he had known that Jon was Rhaegar's son is a non-starter. (And ditto for Aegon, even if he had accepted the latter's claim to be Rhaegar's son.)

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While I don't agree with that poster that the show proves anything about Jon one way or the other

And I could agree with you on this point, if I had found a precedent from the show that misguided us. From the moment, I can only see minor difference that leaded us to the same conclusions as the books. Like said, I think this conversation is a true and brutal beginning for AA prophecy in the show. It fits perfectly with the new "weak" image of Stannis Baratheon, the supposed AA, and I think HBO just took this chance to build this new Jon.

I just want to demonstrate that while we can stil doubt things, the show can serve us to find a new kind of evidences because they'll obviously not build AA's legend in a single season, at the very end. They won't be able to kept the readers away for certain details GRRM hided from the beginning that they need to build the storyline (the best they could do was to keep Coldhands away from the season 3, which lead us to think that he may a known character Sam hadn't met yet - Benjen is that you ?).

Cat story making the link of Jon's treatment to the gods is one of this details : then just had the fact that the show just demonstrate R'hllor of being the true god of Westeros (leeches, Beric's rez..) and you get the perfect first stone of Jon's destiny as AA.

And while I really think I just made a thermonuclearproof-point, I still respect you skepticism :).

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