Isildur's Mane Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 You got the gist of my post right. I was pointing out to Disputatous that he should be thinking of Jon as a Ice Dragon, and I linked to the image to show him how he need to think accordingly. Which is funny because I hadn't read your pot until after I posted mine. Great minds think alike and all that jazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 According to Archmaester Marwyn:"The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles." (Last chapter of AFfC.) That passage suggests a literal, not a metaphoric seeing, but does not say so in so many words.In her warning to Dany in ADWD, Quaithe says "The glass candles are burning". It would appear that the chapter in question would come before the one in Feast wherein Marwyn tells Samwell the above about the glass candle burning in his room in the Citadel, in whatever merger order GRRM had in mind.I doubt that Marwyn and Quaithe were in communication via a pair of obsidian candles, but it is possible. They might have met when Marwyn was traveling in Essos (we know he did meet Mirri Maz Duur). If so there could have been an agreement about using her candle and one from the citadel. Also it might be that he had some instruction from her about how to use such a candle: since no one else at the citadel appears to (still) know how. Speculative, but not completely implausible / impossible. In the AFFC prologue one of the young maesters-to-be says he has seen the candle in Marwyn's chamber burn, and he describes it, which means that (unless he's making it up of course) Marwyn's candle has been burning for a while before he speaks with Sam. Also, in ACOK in Qarth Xaro tells Dany that the candle in Urrathon Night Walker's house (whoever that might be) is burning for the first time in 100 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 In the AFFC prologue one of the young maesters-to-be says he has seen the candle in Marwyn's chamber burn, and he describes it, which means that (unless he's making it up of course) Marwyn's candle has been burning for a while before he speaks with Sam. Also, in ACOK in Qarth Xaro tells Dany that the candle in Urrathon Night Walker's house (whoever that might be) is burning for the first time in 100 years. Quaithe also contacted Dany in AGOT, and supposedly maesters have to light a glass candle as part of their test to enter the citadel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 :D That said, it definitely can't have been restricted to only that. Lyanna did get pregnant after all :P A man of many talents our silver prince :lol: Was there a purpose in the double-post in this particular case? P By all means, let us continue then I believe there was. After all the 'Teats' were redoubled by Aegon the Unworthy's... fickle temper (Barba's and/or Missy's Teats) :lmao: In the AFFC prologue one of the young maesters-to-be says he has seen the candle in Marwyn's chamber burn, and he describes it, which means that (unless he's making it up of course) Marwyn's candle has been burning for a while before he speaks with Sam. Also, in ACOK in Qarth Xaro tells Dany that the candle in Urrathon Night Walker's house (whoever that might be) is burning for the first time in 100 years. FittleLinger!!! Welcome back to the thread :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Quaithe also contacted Dany in AGOT, and supposedly maesters have to light a glass candle as part of their test to enter the citadel. But wasn't that actual live communication? Also, the maesters initiation's purpose is to teach them a lesson - that they can't light the candle. FittleLinger!!! Welcome back to the thread :grouphug: Thank you, FrozenFIre, it's good to be back! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Was there a purpose in the double-post in this particular case? P By all means, let us continue then The double post was caused by the board crash. I only clicked on submit once, and waited a long time before going elsewhere. I had thought that double posts had always been caused by clicking on submit more than once. ETA: Perhaps the post had a mind of its own? FF3, thanks for the memory jogger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The double post was caused by the board crash. I only clicked on submit once, and waited a long time before going elsewhere. I had thought that double posts had always been caused by clicking on submit more than once. ETA: Perhaps the post had a mind of its own? FF3, thanks for the memory jogger. Or perhaps the board does? :P I find this coincidence rather suspicious :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Or perhaps the board does? :P I find this coincidence rather suspicious :D What's a second mound between friends? :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 In THK, Dareon's dream of a dragon falling dead on top of Dunk ends up referring to Baelor Breakspear. In TMK, Daemon II blackfyre dreams of an egg hatching at Whitewalls which later turns out to be the personal development of Aegon AKA Egg. The dragons in those prophecies referred to Targaryens. So it would not be too far to assume that the dragon in the PtwP/AA prophecy could refer to a Targaryen.That could be true, however, there are two caveats: one there is one person who has dreamnt of dragons and then literal dragons appears and that's Dany. And two the AAR/TPTWP prophesy says he/she will awaken dragon from stone not be awoken from stone, which is a very big difference. The last part is the issue - and I honestly don't see a way for Jon to wake dragons from stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 That could be true but there are two caveats: one there is one person who has dreamnt of dragons and then literal dragons appears and that's Dany. And two the AAR/TPTWP prophesy says he/she will awaken dragon from stone not be awoken from stone, which is a very big difference. Who is stay Jon will not wake his own dragon, or Targaryen heritage, from stone or hiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Who is stay Jon will not wake his own dragon, or Targaryen heritage, from stone or hiding?Well, GRRM has confirmed that the birth of the dragons was a one time deal, so Jon won't be awakening any real stone dragons. As for awakening his heritage, I thing that's a stretch howeve, it won't be him revealing his heritage, as it will be revealed to him. He doesn't have this information, whoever is going to provide it to him will be "awakening" that particular dragon. Finally, the prophesy says dragons, as in multiple dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Finally, the prophesy says dragons, as in multiple dragons.It is actually reported as both singular and plural dragons. Since we only have information from various POVs who got their information gods know where, we really can't say with any certainty what exactly the prophesy says.Fwiw, we've discussed here in the past that this could be similar to the gender confusion Maester Aemon notes to Sam. It is possible for words to be both singular and plural, which may cause confusion in translation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Well, GRRM has confirmed that the birth of the dragons was a one time deal, so Jon won't be awakening any real stone dragons. As for awakening his heritage, I thing that's a stretch howeve, it won't be him revealing his heritage, as it will be revealed to him. He doesn't have this information, whoever is going to provide it to him will be "awakening" that particular dragon. Finally, the prophesy says dragons, as in multiple dragons. It could also refer to him publicly revealing his true identity, or coming out of hiding. Waking a dragon from stone could still possibly refer to learning his heritage. The person who says "dragons from stone," Mel, later says to wake the stone dragon not dragons. It is an easy thing to go from singular to plural in describing things as well as translations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 It is actually reported as both singular and plural dragons. Since we only have information from various POVs who got their information gods know where, we really can't say with any certainty what exactly the prophesy says.Fwiw, we've discussed here in the past that this could be similar to the gender confusion Maester Aemon notes to Sam. It is possible for words to be both singular and plural, which may cause confusion in translation.That could be, yet it still stands that this person will "wake dragons from stone" and awakening your heritage isn't really waking it from stone. Like I said AAR/TPTWP needs to perform this deed not have it performed on him which is what will happen no when Jon is told about his heritage. They'll be awakening that dragon not Jon.ETA: Fire Eater: I'm sorry but that's really a steach and it makes little sense " to wake your heritage from stone". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 That could be, yet it still stands that this person will "wake dragons from stone" and awakening your heritage isn't really waking it from stone. Like I said AAR/TPTWP needs to perform this deed not have it performed on him which is what will happen no when Jon is told about his heritage. They'll be awakening that dragon not Jon. Meh. That's a pretty fine distinction to apply. We're dealing with a translation from a foreign language, interpreted by various individuals. Since we've been informed already of possible errors in the translation, I think we should be highly sceptical of gender, case and tense. The root words wake, dragon and stone seem to be the only sure bets to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Who is stay Jon will not wake his own dragon, or Targaryen heritage, from stone or hiding?And the fact that Jon is a stone dragon in my opinion means that his heritage has been hidden from him for so long that he thinks of himself as a base born bastard, and he has armored himself in that identity. When the reveal occurs, Jon won't take it very well, and he will be angry and confused. But the fact that he is a Old Gods follower I think the Targaryen practice of marrying brother and sister won't appeal to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Meh. That's a pretty fine distinction to apply. We're dealing with a translation from a foreign language, interpreted by various individuals. Since we've been informed already of possible errors in the translation, I think we should be highly sceptical of gender, case and tense. The root words wake, dragon and stone seem to be the only sure bets to me. I get what you are trying to say, and yes there are some things mistranslated but as you say dragon and stone are the constant. Jon telling the world about his heritage isn't really waking a dragon form stone, whoever tells him is the one awakening him from darkness of not knowing about his true heritage. I honestly think that Dany is the PTWP and Jon will turn out to be AAR. Aemon is the one who is right and Benerro calling her AAR is a misdirection. But we disagree, so lets agree to disagree. Isn't that what we do all day on the board anyways. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Why are people arguing Dany's AA/PtwP case in a thread that's about Jon? If you want to argue that, maybe go do it in a thread that's actually about her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Why are people arguing Dany's AA/PtwP case in a thread that's about Jon? If you want to argue that, maybe go do it in a thread that's actually about her. No, actually who is AA/PTwP is a pertinent issue here. If it is a Jon thread that doesn't mean only the ideas supporting him should be welcome here. Ideally the case should be considered from both the sides. And honestly Maester is making a ton of sense. And I'm not seeing much evidence being presented to counter her arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 No, actually who is AA/PTwP is a pertinent issue here. If it is a Jon thread that doesn't mean only the ideas supporting him should be welcome here. Ideally the case should be considered from both the sides. And honestly Maester is making a ton of sense. And I'm not seeing much evidence being presented to counter her arguments. I thought the "pertinent" issue of this particular thread was who Jon's parents were/are. How silly of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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