Cricket XXII - A Cook's Tour

[ljkeane]

Strange timing half way through the series, you'd think he'd wait until the end if there wasn't something pressuring him to go now. I do think he's been struggling with his elbow injury for the last year or so, he's notably struggled to get much spin in the last two series, which was usually one of his strengths. I'd say either his elbow has broken down again or he's been told Monty's going to be the spinner for the next two tests and given the chance to retire rather than be dropped.

A slightly sad note for him to go on but still you'd have to say there's a good argument he's the best English spinner ever and overall he's had an excellent career.

[Jeor]

Yeah, he really wasn't the same since his injury.

Good insight LJK. He's only taken a combined 7 wickets for 560 runs (average 80) on this tour so one could make a case that he may have been dropped, especially with the series lost the selectors may have wanted to try something new. If there was a call for heads to roll, then Swann and Anderson (plus a few of the batsman) would have been the first to go, and Swann was in the unfortunate position that there was a ready-made unanimous replacement for him on tour in Panesar. Whereas Anderson and the batsmen there are bigger arguments to be had as to who comes in.

That being said with match figures of 2/198 Panesar wasn't really much better.

[ljkeane]

That's true but if Swann isn't offering that extra bit of threat he used to of the two spinners bowling in a fairly average manner so far you might as well go with Panesar as the Australian batting lineup is mainly right handers now.

[fuem]

Monty isn't bowling all that well either though..

[Jeor]

That's true but if Swann isn't offering that extra bit of threat he used to of the two spinners bowling in a fairly average manner so far you might as well go with Panesar as the Australian batting lineup is mainly right handers now.

Plus Panesar at 31 is more of a long-term solution than sticking with Swann, who might have (and did) retire at any point, so it makes sense to favour him in these more experimental dead-rubber Tests coming up.

[Alester Florent]

Reminds me of Damien Martyn, who retired suddenly from all cricket in the middle of a series that wasn't going well for him. Admittedly, he did it when his team were stuffing the opposition out of sight.

Hopefully there's a degree of altruism in his decision to retire now, if he thinks that he's not up to it and shouldn't play in Melbourne, to allow the selectors to play another spinner uncontroversially. But he's been bowling so badly you'd have thought the same would be achieved by a quiet word in private. It's not like Monty lit up the scoreboard in Perth either, other than in the runs column.

I don't know what the future of England spin is, although it was becoming increasingly apparent it wasn't Swann, good as he's been for the last four years, and especially given his age. Much as I like Monty, he's already nearly 32 and despite a number of stints in the England team, his figures are indicative of an honest country trier whos's barely international class. Patel hasn't developed his bowling as much as necessary to play as a frontline spinner; we all saw Kerrigan at the Oval. I don't think any English spinner has taken more than 30 first-class wickets this county season*, although Scott Borthwick might be worth a shout if England take the plunge and go for a leggie rather than the usual offspin.

*Not sure if Ollie Rayner is qualified for England. They can probably make that happen if he's not, but still.

[fuem]

The thing was with Mr Martin he was everything you could hope for in a player a keeper a good batter and could swing the ball like a new fashion trend. England hasn't really seen a decent swinger or spin bowler since Matt Hoggard and if i may ask isn't swann just a bad knock off of glyes sun glasses and all

[Jeor]

isn't swann just a bad knock off of glyes sun glasses and all

I'd say that Swann is way better than Giles ever was. Giles could bat a bit (so could Swann mind you) but Swann was a far superior spinner. He genuinely caused major problems to batting orders when he was at the height of his powers, whereas Giles was much more a traditional holding bowler who nabbed the odd wicket here and there.

As for the future of English spinners...well, Monty may not be a world-beater, but he'll be serviceable enough for a couple of years until they find the real thing. By the sounds of it, it will take some years for England to develop good spinning prospects, so I would think of Panesar as a 'hold the fort' sort of guy until the next generation comes in. No sense throwing young guys like Kerrigan in to get eaten alive; at least with Monty available in the meantime, England can afford to be a bit more patient.

EDIT: If you compare the numbers, Swann is way ahead of Giles.

Swann - 255 wickets in 60 matches. Average 29.96, Economy 2.98.

Giles - 143 wickets in 54 matches. Average 40.60, Economy 2.86.

Swann comfortably has more wickets than Giles (112 more wickets in only 6 more matches), a much better average, and Giles only beats him slightly in economy.

[fuem]

The other thing is who is to say since you lost this series your next test series KP makes back to back double tons Swann takes 21 wickets cook scores a few hundreds. The boxing day test match might be were it all turns around for England i hate it when a team loses and everyone is like WE GOTTA CUT THE WHOLE TEAM COS THERE POOP happens all the time all the time. Aust had the same problem and now we are winning we are sticking to JUST one side and England are like well better get rid of every one and bring the under 12 Yorkshire side in

[Jeor]

I do agree with you somewhat there, fuem, which is why I'd say England has to go with Panesar the next few years rather than throw in someone too new.

It's the same reason I argued for Rogers' inclusion in the Australian side not too long ago. No use throwing in a youngster just for youth's sake if they're not ready yet; even if Rogers only lasts a couple of years, if he's the best bet out there, put him in, and let the youngsters wait their turn until they're more ready.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Woohoo. A test series win over someone who isn't Zimbabwe or Bangladesh. And to think how easily it could have been our first ever 3-0 whitewash victory over anyone.

[ljkeane]

South Africa might just be in danger of winning this test match, I wasn't expecting that yesterday.

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

SA are going to win this one.

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

What an amazing player this FaF is.

Edit : This was an excellent Test match . Going in the last hour of the final day and to still have all results possible was just fun to see .

Shame that it is going to be a 2 Test match series , both the BCCI and CSA should be blamed for it .

[williamjm]

Shame to see Swann go, although it might have been the right time for it, since he's obviously been some way short of his normal performances. I think a lot of England's biggest achievements in recent years, such as rising to number 1 in the world or winning a series in India, may well not have happened without him.

As for the future of English spinners...well, Monty may not be a world-beater, but he'll be serviceable enough for a couple of years until they find the real thing. By the sounds of it, it will take some years for England to develop good spinning prospects, so I would think of Panesar as a 'hold the fort' sort of guy until the next generation comes in. No sense throwing young guys like Kerrigan in to get eaten alive; at least with Monty available in the meantime, England can afford to be a bit more patient.

It'll probably be Monty in Tests for the next year at least (unless he has a repeat of last Summer's problems) and Tredwell in limited overs cricket - Tredwell already seemed to have taken Swann's place as first choice limited overs cricketer. I suppose Tredwell might be the initial back-up option in Tests, but although he's economical he's not a big wicket-taking threat.

There are definitely opportunities for younger players to come in. Danny Briggs was touring Australia with the England Performance Programme so he might be one of the leading contenders.

[Stubby]

What an amazing player this FaF is.

Edit : This was an excellent Test match . Going in the last hour of the final day and to still have all results possible was just fun to see .

Shame that it is going to be a 2 Test match series , both the BCCI and CSA should be blamed for it .

Agree on all points. Great stuff.

[Jeor]

Second time now that Faf du Plessis has been involved in an impressive draw. I think de Villiers helped out in the Australian draw as well, so those two are gaining a good reputation as fourth innings saviours!

I really thought they were going to get it at the end. But the bowling team always has the advantage of being able to slow the game down, although by the sounds of it, South Africa could have pushed a bit more. Still, a draw is a good result for them and they'll still have one of the highest 4th innings scores ever.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Still, a draw is a good result for them and they'll still have one of the highest 4th innings scores ever.

They were just one run short of our 451 vs England in 2001/02 (best remembered for Nathan Astle, and the highest fourth innings score by a losing side). Above that is the 600+ from the drawn Timeless Test, which will probably never be beaten.

[fuem]

There saying the Test Draw between SA and India will go down as one of the best. I didn't see any of it or follow the scores etc your thought?

[ljkeane]

There are definitely opportunities for younger players to come in. Danny Briggs was touring Australia with the England Performance Programme so he might be one of the leading contenders.

Looks like it's going to be Borthwick as the young guy given the first chance. That makes sense to me, their first class bowling figures are pretty similar but Borthwick offers a lot more with the bat and as a leg spinner potentially has more threat as an attacking spinner. Of course going with that there's probably more risk to picking a leg spinner but they already have a safe option in Panesar.

Also out of the young spinners available to England Kerrigan actually has the best first class figures fairly comfortably and although he was terrible when he played in the summer I wouldn't completely discard him based on one poor performance.