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Ours if the Fury

Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

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This was also my biggest problem with Jon-warg-Ghost-resurrect theory. My critiques to the theory are 1) it's not creative, 2) it's redundant, and 3) it's too obvious.

First, it's not creative. it's a blatant rip off of Hobb's work. Now, of course fantasy has a rich tradition of ripping off other people's work -- the whole genre is pretty much a tradition of stealing from Tolkien to some extent or another. But GRRM has made his bones in subverting these tropes to create suspense or surprise (nerdy-hero-wins-hot-princess = Quentyn Martell, honorable-hero-defeats-calculating-villans = Ned, etc.) I doubt that GRRM will steal the plot-twist ending from another author's best trilogy to resolve one of his biggest cliffhangers. Because of the greater popularity of aSoIaF, it's going to ruin the trilogy. Plus, Hobb and GRRM are on friendly terms last I heard.

Second, it's redundant. Red priest Mel can already resurrect people without needing a complicated Jon-warg-Ghost process. Bran/Bloodraven can conceivably do the same like Coldhands. Plus, "Evil" (or for some tin-foil theorists, perhaps "Misunderstood") Jon theory would say the WW are going to resurrect Jon into their champion of Ice. All of which do not require Jon-warg-into-Ghost for resurrection.

So, that leaves the biggest counterfactual to the above. Why did GRRM place the idea of dead man warging so prominently in the prologue? My response: RED HERRING, which makes it my third criticism to the warg theory, it's too obvious. GRRM is going to solve a book's cliffhanger by putting the solution in the prologue of that same book? Sorry, I don't think GRRM gives you the answer to his puzzles that blatantly.

I do think there might be a variation, however, where warging is not the solution to Jon's resurrect but instead Jon's education, as discussed below.

Honestly I don't "know" how or if GRRM will bring back Jon. He may indeed be dead and R + L = J? is of no consequence and may never be answered. My best guess is that in the books Mel will burn Shireen (kingsblood) with her mother's consent, Jon will resurrect with all of his personality intact because kingsblood seems to make the red priests bloodmagic even more powerful, and Jon will be educated by of his parentage through Bran making him the woken stone dragon. This may or may not be a complete surprise to Mel, who thought she was getting an actual dragon or thought she was resurrecting Stannis (if she gets wind of the Pink Letter) instead of a Jon Targaryean. Perhaps Stannis will suffer a setback from either the Battle of Ice or the predicted Siege of WInterfell or some other future event and order Mel to burn Shireen in order to wake the stone dragon. The journey is not clear, but the destination is. Shireen will be burned. My guess, based on what we're learning from the books and show is that burning Shireen will be the catalyst to Jon resurrection in the books.

Maybe warging will take place when Bran is educating Jon on his parentage while Jon's soul is in limbo, although it is unnecessary as Bran could do so after Jon is resurrected. On the show, I think they'll do a variation, swapping Stannis (lol gratuitous so we cut from showing the death lol!) for Shireen or just having Mel resurrect Jon and "simplifying" the storyline for the TV audience. The reason for this edit is that the producers did not want hero Jon resurrected from the ashes of innocent Shireen.

Regardless, warging is not the "key" to resurrecting Jon, it's at best just part of the process or a complete red herring to keep the reader from prematurely predicting Shireen's death, which the show producers gleefully spoiled us book readers (turnabout is fair play I suppose).

And in tidying up loose ends, the show and actor can later say that all their proclamations that "Jon Snow is dead" and not coming back are accurate. Jon Snow is dead. Jon Targaryean, the stone dragon, Azor Ahai reborn, rightful claimant to the throne of the Andals and the First Men, has yet to be awoken.

Having Jon just warging into Ghost as some kind of big resolution have always seemed like a bit of a red herring. He cant stay in his wolf for to long or he will just lose himself completely. If he wargs into Ghost and his body dies off then he would basically be stuck there. The ability to warg comes from the blood of the First Men, once your body is dead then you obviously dont have the blood of the first men anymore, and you would just be stuck in your animal. I dont think the Varamyr chapter at the start of ADWD is a red herring. The chapter teaches the reader all there is to know about warging, and it also shows that is a certain moral code involved when you are a warg. It is constantly refers to the warging of humans as an abomination, this part of the story obviously have a direct impact on Bran. The main thing is that there seems to be a certain code, and that warging can be used for either good or bad purposes.

I think the situation after FTW could be treated differently in the books then how it might be handled in the show. The stabbing was already different, in the books Jon's situation is left much more ambiguously. I think Jon could actually still be alive in the books and recover naturally. He might be in a coma for a while and Bran could contact him and perhaps teach him how to warg properly, whilst he is actually alive to warg. His recovery might take a while, or he could also be dead and somehow be resurrected by Bran and Bloodraven, rather then by the Lord of Light.

On the show it is more dramatic to just leave Jon slowly die in the snow whilst his bleed is seeping out. It creates a shock and much more of an impactful cliffhanger for the audience if they think that Jon is dead without a shadow of doubt. It might also be more practical for them to have Melisandre resurrect him. They only have 20 episodes left to finish the series, perhaps they just dont have the time for lengthy recovery processes, and it is also not something that would be compelling to watch on TV. They have left out Lady Stoneheart so the resurrection of Jon would be much more meaningful.

But who knows perhaps Jon will just be resurrected by Melisandre in both mediums. Or perhaps it is the blood sacrifice of Shireen that actually resurrects Jon and not Melisandre who does it directly. They could try to burn his body and he might arise due to his Targaryen blood, and due to the Kings blood sacrifice of Shireen. Something like this would show that Jon has Targaryen blood, but perhaps something like this is more likely to happen in the show then in the books.

There would obviously have to be consequences to FTW, for Jon and to the environment around him. The situation in the Night Watch would have to change, there are Wildlings who have just sworn themselves to Jon's cause, and there are still Nights Watch members who are loyal to Jon. You would have to think that there are going to be some big conflict here.

Jon would also have to change or bare some consequences, I could see him becoming more ruthless which would properly not be a bad thing for him. But at the same time I personally would not want to see him change too much. There needs to be some kind of balance in the story. Before Jon's stabbing he was basically the only important character in a leadership position who really acted honorably. I really dont need to see him becoming much more of a grey character. There are obviously other good and honorable characters such as Brienne and Davos for example, but they feel more like secondary characters and they are not in positions to impart much change. The story already has a huge amount of of all shades of grey characters, for balance I personally feel that Jon cant change too much. But I am also sure there also a lot of people who would like to see Jon become a darker character.

Beric Dondarrion has been resurrected seven times, and he did not change into a dark or evil character, he started to lose some of his personality and his memories, the more he was resurrected. It seems like those who are resurrected by the Lord of Light becomes much more consumed or focused on the task they were busy with before their death. In the show if Jon isn't resurrected by White Walker or something, I am going to guess that they will not change him to much.

One thing that is interesting is that show has never even mentioned the name Azor Ahai directly. All of these ancient prophecies are very interesting in the books, but you cant help wondering if it all isn't a bit of misdirection at times, for the readers and for the characters themselves. It seems like people try to hard to make all of these prophecies work sometimes. Perhaps we will never actually know who Azor Ahai or the Prince That Was Promised truly are.

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I don't think Jon is Azor Ahai, but I do think he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, shielded all these years by Ned Stark. If he indeed survives (crosses fingers), I believe he will have a major part in the fight against the WW's and will be one of the three dragon riders.

The original prophecy repeated to Sam by Aemon Targaryen mentioned the use of the Valyrian word for "dragons", which are neither male or female. This would mean the Prince that Was Promised may also be a Princess? Daenerys fulfills the prophecy, reborn amidst salt and smoke, awaking dragons from stone on the morning the Red Comet appeared in the sky.

Also, reading some of the WoW samples...was surprised to hear Aegon may be alive? Now that would throw a monkey wrench into the whole Jon Snow aka Azor Ahai predictions!

Did you read the books or not? Because Aegon doesn't seem alive in the show, but in the books he is already 'alive' pre tWoW.

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i have read all the books, quite a long time ago. I am waiting for TWOW to eventually hit the bookstores...like everyone else. The first notice I saw of Aegon was in one of the reading samples. Perhaps I should go back and re-read since the part of him being alive has escaped me. :bang:


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i have read all the books, quite a long time ago. I am waiting for TWOW to eventually hit the bookstores...like everyone else. The first notice I saw of Aegon was in one of the reading samples. Perhaps I should go back and re-read since the part of him being alive has escaped me

you shore lol maybe the name young griff rings a bell. he guy tyrion travels with and discoverd is aegon. u could also just read the aegon forums on here. he in my opinon is just varys mumers dragon

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Thanks!!! Now that name does ring a bell...Connington's son. I think I dismissed him as being the real son of Rhaegar. Its the only reason I have for forgetting him entirely. Nevertheless, I am already re-reading. :)


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My unsullied friend had an interesting idea that had never occurred to me. He thinks, because Jon is a secret Targaryen, that when the Nights Watch tries to burn his body it doesn't burn, but the fire allows Jon to warg back from Ghost to his own body, unburnt.


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Jon visited Bran while he was comatose, and I think Bran will visit Jon while he is comatose or state of near-death.

I feel like it could be this whole, "You don't belong here Jon, go to Ghost." and Bran helps guide Jon through preserving himself. Bran has set himself up as a puppet master and it was said before, I think he will help guide the Stark children back together.

On another related thought, at one time, wasn't Theon or Asha believed to be the sacrifice to resurrect Jon? Wouldn't that be the Old Gods way? Is that still a thing? I see more people believing that Mel will bring him back. How ridiculous would it be if a simultaneous sacrifice leads Mel to believe that it was her when it was really Stannis/Old Gods' work if he truly follows through with killing Theon or Asha.

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In the books, here is how I think it will play out...

Wildlings will crush and kill the treasonous NW members in short order. Jon, being dead, gets put into the ice cells. We get news that the Others have breached the Wall somewhere. Melisandre, having news that Stannis is dead and feeling that something must be done to stop the Others and hopefully bring Stannis back, sacrifices Shireen. Unexpectedly (to her), this raises Jon. With the Others army now south of the Wall, there is little point to Jon, the remaining NW, and the Wildlings staying there. Where to go to set up their operations against the Others though? Winterfell of course.

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In the books, here is how I think it will play out...

Wildlings will crush and kill the treasonous NW members in short order.

I dont think it'll be that simple. Keep in mind that the night watch has the 99 wildlings' sons as hostages and insurance

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Not sure if this is relevant to this thread or if I should create a new one, but:

What do you all think Sam's reaction will be upon hearing of Jon's being betrayed by a faction of the NW?

I think he'll be in two minds. He'll want to uphold Jon's order and become a Maester, but also he will want to go to the aid of one of his only friends.

If I have to choose, I think he will stay at the Citadel; he will have more enemies at the Wall than friends, and given he calls himself a craven in every sentence he will not have it in him. Plus the small fact of Gilly, the baby and the conspiracy...Sam will stay at the Citadel, after much deliberation. [emoji39]

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I found this as a top story on a google search. Not sure how legit this is and if the quote is legit, but here:




After the upheaval following Jon Snow's apparent fatal stabbing by the men of The Night Watch in the Season 5 finale of HBO's fantasy epic "Game of Thrones" a little over a week ago, fans of both the novels and the show were mollified after Martin unintentionally told iO9 during the one of the series' main favorites still survives in the book.


Martin explained how the characters' story continued to grow along with the narration of the central chronicle. "Yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be," the author said.





Not that I needed that to tell me that he is alive, but interesting nonetheless.




http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-winds-of-winter-spoiler-george-r-r-martin-accidentally-reveals-jon-snow-status-140812/


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I found this as a top story on a google search. Not sure how legit this is and if the quote is legit, but here:

After the upheaval following Jon Snow's apparent fatal stabbing by the men of The Night Watch in the Season 5 finale of HBO's fantasy epic "Game of Thrones" a little over a week ago, fans of both the novels and the show were mollified after Martin unintentionally told iO9 during the one of the series' main favorites still survives in the book.

Martin explained how the characters' story continued to grow along with the narration of the central chronicle. "Yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be," the author said.

Not that I needed that to tell me that he is alive, but interesting nonetheless.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-winds-of-winter-spoiler-george-r-r-martin-accidentally-reveals-jon-snow-status-140812/

Pretty sure that's a rather old quote.

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I dont think it'll be that simple. Keep in mind that the night watch has the 99 wildlings' sons as hostages and insurance

Lol, that is true. But who is guarding them. If this are the Wilding NW members or the North Mountain Clan members (Who are loyal to Jon), then they will getting released, and i am also convinced that when Iron Emmett and Edd hear about the stabbing, they will lead the Spearwives in an assault to retake Castle Black from the traitors.

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Lol, that is true. But who is guarding them. If this are the Wilding NW members or the North Mountain Clan members (Who are loyal to Jon), then they will getting released, and i am also convinced that when Iron Emmett and Edd hear about the stabbing, they will lead the Spearwives in an assault to retake Castle Black from the traitors.

Bowen doesn't strike me as the the impulsive sort. Ceasering Jon was probably thought over a lot and months ahead. its true that Jon has a lot of supporters but most of them are either wildlings or away, and most likely the majority of the NW follow Bowen.

I believe that the version that will reach Edd, Emmett and likely the rest of Westeros of the stabbing will probably be the Bowen March edition, where either Jon is the bad guy or the Wildlings are to blame for the assassination. I'm sure some pro Jon wildlings or NW saw the assassination but the official version will be Bowen's. Moreover, even if Edd and Emmett knew exactly what happened, I don't see them declaring war on the Watch, they are strong and dependable but not that much.

If Bowen and his supporters have 50 or 40 of the wildlings' sons it'll be enough hostages

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Just re-read the Sixskins prologue chapter. What is that for if not to set up the John-warg-Ghost theory??

Red herring. It's to keep you from the most obvious solution. Stannis orders Mel to burn Shireen to wake the stone dragon, which results in "waking" or resurrecting Jon Targ.

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Red herring. It's to keep you from the most obvious solution. Stannis orders Mel to burn Shireen to wake the stone dragon, which results in "waking" or resurrecting Jon Targ.

And how will they solve that in the series?

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And how will they solve that in the series?

You mean in the TV show series? Simple. Non-tinfoil: they just have Mel rez Jon and simplify stuff (for example, saying that Jon's bleeding out is the king's blood needed to wake the stone dragon). Tinfoil: they burn Stannis.

This is really off-topic but the director's explanations on why they didn't show Stannis's death are bullshit. The director says he didn't do it was because it was "gratuitous" (lol) and showing a stabbing was a safety risk (lol). Both explanations disproven by the Red Wedding and the numerous other examples of gratuitous stabbings without a concern of the actors' safety. Also, in one of the interviews the director admitted that D&D's specific instructions to the director were that he not show Stannis actually dying on screen.

Which helps explain why D&D moved up the Shireen burning timeline. Their "good guys" have to be far less grey than in the books. In the show, Tyrion is much less dark, Shae actually loved Tyrion, no Lady Stoneheart, etc. So D&D cannot have the BIG EPIC RESURRECTION of Jon occur from the ashes of sweet innocent Shireen. But there is no problem with using Stannis for firewood because the show watches now hate Stannis for burning Shireen. Considering the show watchers reaction to the rape of Sansa or the burning of Shireen, D&D probably made the right call on this. In the TV watchers opinion, you can castrate a "bad" guy like Theon without a problem but if someone hurts or is involved in hurting a "good" person then the character or the writers are hated forever.

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^The first prologue set up the WW's as a threat. The 2nd set up Melisandre's power and the Strangler, which would later be used to kill Joffrey. The third prologue again highlighted the threat of the others, the 4th prologue gave us our first glimpse of Oldtown and introduced us to an as of yet unknown faceless man plot, as well as the glass candles, yet it is your statement that the 5th prologue was simply a red herring? Even though the prologue matches Melisandres vision of Jon as a man then a wolf then a man again? It seems like your really stretching it.


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