Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ours if the Fury

Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

Recommended Posts

This can only happen if he finds out about his heritage, which is why i assume Howland will make his long awaited appearance in the next book

I think it can happen because he is honorable and tries to do good despite himself. Should he be Jon and survive his injuries, the North will see him for who he is, with the support of Howland Reed and those that know his true identity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it can happen because he is honorable and tries to do good despite himself. Should he be Jon and survive his injuries, the North will see him for who he is, with the support of Howland Reed and those that know his true identity.

Fair enough, i will mull this over in my head and see if i can ship this!!!

:cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'm kind of hoping that Jon just dies and that's it. I mean at this point everyone seems to be expecting that he'll live on in some fashion, because it's been a convention established not only in this series but in fantasy fiction and heroic protagonists in general. The good guy always survives... and of COURSE he's also the prophecied Savior too who'll do his battle with the underworld and come back with magical powers to slay the evil villains and save the princess and blah blah blah.



Sure Martin subverted this with Ned... except the result was everyone just concluded that Ned wasn't "really" the protagonist in the first place and so the subversion was that we thought he was, not that the protagonist was killed off for real, so we can still cling to the trope of the heroic protagonist in Jon.



A hope that must be extinguished.



How about he dies, and Mel realizes that he WAS Azor Azhai Reborn, but now he's gotta be Reborn again, so while he's doing that, everyone's got to survive the Winter on their own without a magical savior.



Except for Dany of course. Which is why she should die too. But that's another subject.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'm kind of hoping that Jon just dies and that's it. I mean at this point everyone seems to be expecting that he'll live on in some fashion, because it's been a convention established not only in this series but in fantasy fiction and heroic protagonists in general. The good guy always survives... and of COURSE he's also the prophecied Savior too who'll do his battle with the underworld and come back with magical powers to slay the evil villains and save the princess and blah blah blah.

Sure Martin subverted this with Ned... except the result was everyone just concluded that Ned wasn't "really" the protagonist in the first place and so the subversion was that we thought he was, not that the protagonist was killed off for real, so we can still cling to the trope of the heroic protagonist in Jon.

A hope that must be extinguished.

How about he dies, and Mel realizes that he WAS Azor Azhai Reborn, but now he's gotta be Reborn again, so while he's doing that, everyone's got to survive the Winter on their own without a magical savior.

Except for Dany of course. Which is why she should die too. But that's another subject.

I don't mind this insight, if he died and that was it, it would be a fabulous way of shifting the game,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The stewards had long ago discovered that food and meat kept longer in the icy storerooms carved from the base of the Wall . . . but prisoners did not. "You will die in here Lord Snow," Ser Alliser Thorne had said

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Jon is put into a coma by the stabbings, and Marsh mistakes a comatose Jon for a dead one and moves him to the ice cells next to the smoked meats. The red star is Ser Partek whose sigil is a star, and is a follower of the Red God. Lord Snow will die in the ice cells, and a new Jon will be reborn.

When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

"I fear no ghosts. Dragons are more powerful than ghosts."

Jon's spirit will be in Ghost while he's out, but his spirit/will is strong enough to keep him from dissipating into Ghost and remain intact.

The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell.

This might be reaching, but this could be a reference to BR helping to break Jon's shell, or his false identity as Jon Snow, Ned's son, which was used to hide his Targaryen identity to protect him just as Aegon's alias, Egg, was used to hide his true Targaryen identity. BR breaks the shell to hatch the dragon inside the egg, or uncover Jon's identity as a Targaryen.

"And he is mine [stannis] own blood."

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon.

Blood, like the way Stannis had used, is used interchangeably with family and relations. It can be taken as a clue that a king's blood, or king's relative, can wake the stone dragon. Bran is blood to kings Robb and Jon, and BR is also blood to kings, from Aegon IV to Jon. Bran and Bloodraven will wake the stone dragon.


Did a bit of a search, couldn't see that anything has been posted and don't know if Martin has ever made reference to it, forgive me if it's old news.

Follow the link to the Russian Garlan... d, a collection of Russian chap-book folk stories. I've read about half of them, honestly they're a bit of a struggle. A few passing mentions raise an eyebrow like Bulat the Brave Companion, Emelyan the fool and a comically brief appearance by a three headed dragon, but the headliner is the most interesting, brave, noble and creepy sleep watcher Lyubim is betrayed and murdered by his brothers only to be resurrected by the winged wolf and justice had by all.

http://www.akirarabe...an/garland.html

Jon, a prince, is "killed" by his brothers, and Bran, the winged wolf, and BR will move to save him. Jon will receive a vision like Bran did during his coma. Jon will descend into the crypts in his dream, and confront his fears and go down the steps.

The mention of dreams reminded him. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”
“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.
“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.


When the time comes, I [Ned] will tell him myself.

He will meet an image/apparition of Ned who tells Jon the truth about his parentage, like Arthur's foster father, Sir Ector, told Arthur about his true parentage. He may even possibly meet his mother, Lyanna.

Wake dragons from stone

Still as stone[syrio]

I agree with Alia of the knife that it is a reference to Dune with "Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken"

"The sleeper must awaken" means a truth realized as well as someone having changed. Jon is in a coma after the Ides of Marsh, and waking the dragon from stone could mean Jon uncovering the truth of his heritage, that he is a Targaryen, while he is comatose or still as stone. In his coma after he wakes up he will no longer be Jon Snow or Lord Snow, but Jon Targaryen.

Across the long lake, one of the mounds moved. He watched it more closely and saw that it was not dirt at all, but alive, a shaggy lumbering beast with a snake for a nose and tusks larger than those of the greatest boar that had ever lived. And the thing riding it was huge as well, and his shape was wrong, too thick in the leg and hips to be a man.

In the Battle of Long Lake, Raymun Redbeard was headed south away from the Wall, and met with the Stark force marching north towards them. Lord William Stark was slain and decapitated, and William's brother, Artos, slew Raymun Redbeard in battle. The wildling army is crushed when they are taken in the rear by Lord Harmond Umber, the Drunken Giant, and Redbeard and all his sons are killed, and his line extinguished. Raymund's brother, the Red Raven, was the first to flee the battle.

"The Magnar's a lord on Skagos," Noye said. "There were Skagossans at Eastwatch when I first came to the Wall, I remember talk of him."

This is foreshadowing when it is inverted with the wildling force coming south fighting on the Stark side, and the force coming from WF being the Boltons. The giants on their mammoths from Eatswatch-by-the-Sea could take the Boltons in the rear, led by Wun Wun who had taken a liking to wine according to Jon, along with Davos with the Skagosi supporting Rickon who landed at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea where the giants are staying.

Robb Stark, who had a red beard, was slain by Roose Bolton, and decapitated. Jon, Robb's brother (cousin actually), kills Roose in battle, and avenges Robb like Artos Stark. Ramsay is also killed in battle by Jon, and House Bolton is extinguished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

George R R Martin has a habit of killing the wrong people. I mean, he let Jaime live but killed the Young Wolf?


Its not that I don't like Jon, but his importance stopped after the War with the Wildlings. But if that was true. his parentage would be revealed., if there was anything to reveal. Since in an interview Martin said there would be a Luke Skywalker reveal, he will be back. How I don't know and I don't care.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

George R R Martin has a habit of killing the wrong people. I mean, he let Jaime live but killed the Young Wolf?

Its not that I don't like Jon, but his importance stopped after the War with the Wildlings.

Actually, given the fallout at the Wall after the Ides of Marsh, I think he is needed now more than ever. Besides, there are clues pointing to him having a very important role:

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor only shows me Snow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

George R R Martin has a habit of killing the wrong people. I mean, he let Jaime live but killed the Young Wolf?

Its not that I don't like Jon, but his importance stopped after the War with the Wildlings. But if that was true. his parentage would be revealed., if there was anything to reveal. Since in an interview Martin said there would be a Luke Skywalker reveal, he will be back. How I don't know and I don't care.

The wrong people? the young wolfs story was over…

Actually, given the fallout at the Wall after the Ides of Marsh, I think he is needed now more than ever. Besides, there are clues pointing to him having a very important role:

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor only shows me Snow.

And yes his importance has increased ten fold, and will soon if anything can be believed link in with Dany's at some point. The quote I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor only shows me Snow. i think is a dead give away to the sheer fact that Jon is Azor Ahai or soon will be

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just have one quiry? is there any supporting evidence in the text that Bran will help Jon ? or even a foreshadowing? sorry i cannot find one.

Jon visited Bran while he was comatose, and I think Bran will visit Jon while he is comatose or state of near-death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, given the fallout at the Wall after the Ides of Marsh, I think he is needed now more than ever. Besides, there are clues pointing to him having a very important role:

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor only shows me Snow.

That could mean she couldn't see Stannis through all the snow. I'm 50/50 on the meaning of that line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That could mean she couldn't see Stannis through all the snow. I'm 50/50 on the meaning of that line.

I don't recall, is it snow or Snow (with a capital S), in the book?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon's story has yet to be told. A nobody like Bowen Marsh is not going to be the one who brings him down. What a BS way to kill off a dynamic character. GRRM can not afford to take Jon out of the game for long in this stage of the series. not if all the foreshadowing, prophecies, and visions that people look way too far into have any merit.



Jon is not dead and warging in to Ghost after this attack will not be a major part of Jon's role in this story. He won't be UnJon. He will just be Jon that survived a bush league betrayal. He will continue to lead the NW until he is told of his lineage. Then all bets are off.. but if I were him I would leave that circus at the wall


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That could mean she couldn't see Stannis through all the snow. I'm 50/50 on the meaning of that line.

But the text spells "Snow" with a capital "S", meaning it is a name, whereas if it were just plain snow it would be lowercase. She also sees Jon Snow in the flames.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon's story has yet to be told. A nobody like Bowen Marsh is not going to be the one who brings him down. What a BS way to kill off a dynamic character. GRRM can not afford to take Jon out of the game for long in this stage of the series. not if all the foreshadowing, prophecies, and visions that people look way too far into have any merit.

Jon is not dead and warging in to Ghost after this attack will not be a major part of Jon's role in this story. He won't be UnJon. He will just be Jon that survived a bush league betrayal. He will continue to lead the NW until he is told of his lineage. Then all bets are off.. but if I were him I would leave that circus at the wall

I SO agree with this statement...And I can see where Wise Fool is coming from, but there's just no way to go on with this story and leave Jon out of it. I also think one of the main reasons people might feel this way about Jon is because of just the sheer length of time that these novels have taken (Since 1996 right?...so lame.). Plus, all of the people that take part in this wiki are among the like 5% of readers who then get on and discuss and over discuss and disect meanings, which then can also contribute to frustration.

There's just way to many hints/foreshadowing/prophecies/unfinished stories centering Jon Snow for him to either be dead or even lamer (IMO) to be warging for very long.

I personally believe the Song of Ice and Fire is centered around Jon (Ice) and Dani (Fire), plus with the whole R+L=JS, plus the AA thing...there's just no way he's out of the picture and/or doesn't still have a HUGE impact throughout the next two.

Also, someone above mentioned it briefly, but I really believe Howland Reed makes an appearance...He's purposely been left out for so long with just enough mention to keep him alive to us...Plus, there are a ton of people that are hanging around his area (BWB, some of Rob Stark's forces) with the most important being two of Robb's bannermen who know that Robb named Jon his heir to Winterfell.

Lastly, I really doubt that Mel is bad...I think a lot of times she is misguided in her fire readings, interpretations, and how she acts as a result of that misguiding...But she still believes she is doing the right thing in the fight between good and evil. So I think it's definitely a good possibility that Bran gets involved with Jon Snow when he is comatosed, but I also think Mel has a good part in restoring him (since so far the only times people have gotten brought back is somehow through the Red God). The only argument to Mel having a part is that she's now up in the North where the Old Gods power is strong, so maybe her powers aren't really able to do much and it's Val who has a part in it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget that when Mance was still in the Watch he was very, very badly wounded, bleeding to death, and they took him to a Wildling healer who fixed him up. Morna has sworn that she'll be whatever Jon needs her to be, whether that's a warrior or a healer.



Mel is at the Wall, yes, but that doesn't mean she's the one who'll be healing him. Perhaps the thing I posted above is the small hints towards Jon getting healed by the Wildlings, who can finally repay him with something for letting them pass the Wall.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt Jon dies. I think we still need his POV and GRRM stated he doesn't write revenant POVs (as he didn't write an unCat POV).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey everyone this is my first post on the site. I've been reading the threads on here for months now and I have to say most are very insightful. Back to the topic on hand which is what will Jon's future be in WoW. Personally I think Jon is just wounded and badly which might mean he'll be unconscious for a period of time. In that period of time I see him warging Ghost.




After a being in ghost for a time he will awake to find mel saved him. Now this is where I think something will happen to trigger Jon into heading south with his wildlings and meeting up with the mannis' to take the North. During that process I believe either we will get the R+L=J theory to happen and Jon will then meet up with Dany and his Old friend Tyrion and everyone will live happily for the rest of their days.



Well I'm not sure what will happen after he learns he's a targ but it will surely involve some fire and blood. It is known.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×