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Ours if the Fury

Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

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I was skimming back through ADWD yesterday and noticed where Mel referenced Jon needing her assistance beyond the Wall. So I think her fires might play a role in his actual rebirth, or in guiding him to whatever lies far North. His experiences at the Heart of Winter may be what allows Jon to further develop as a character. If something like this happened in TWOW, then Jon would be reborn, as it were, in fire (in that fire guided him to whatever led to further character growth).



I'd be thrilled if George gave different characters qualities we'd expect from Azhor Ahai without telling us which one is actually AA.


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I just reread the last book; I can't believe until this moment that I hadn't read the last chapter. For some reason I had stopped reading after Dany, I hadn't read the whole ending completely.



Anyway: Something is bothering me with the attack of Jon. How everything seems to be slow, cold, etc.



I am betting the others have attacked. That's why the giant is enraged. It's why Jon has a hard time moving, why he feels the cold.



The others are going to make the ones attacking Jon stop and try and defend the wall. Leaving Jon able to be healed by someone. He is the north. He is ice. His armor is the wall itself, protecting him while he waves his dragon forged blade...valyrian steel, dragon flame made into steel to attack the windings.



Who in the heck said that we need an actually flaming sword. Unless the prophesies tell of AA coming back with a blazing sword. What we need is someone who will stand against the darkness, to defend the realm of men, who will wield a sword that can take down the others and who is protected by the wall. That is Jon.

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Hey everyone this is my first post on the site. I've been reading the threads on here for months now and I have to say most are very insightful. Back to the topic on hand which is what will Jon's future be in WoW. Personally I think Jon is just wounded and badly which might mean he'll be unconscious for a period of time. In that period of time I see him warging Ghost.

After a being in ghost for a time he will awake to find mel saved him. Now this is where I think something will happen to trigger Jon into heading south with his wildlings and meeting up with the mannis' to take the North. During that process I believe either we will get the R+L=J theory to happen and Jon will then meet up with Dany and his Old friend Tyrion and everyone will live happily for the rest of their days.

Well I'm not sure what will happen after he learns he's a targ but it will surely involve some fire and blood. It is known.

It is known.

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I'm convinced Jon is dead because his death is necessary:



As the events at the ToJ indicate, he is the last trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and thus the rightful king of Westeros. But he will never be able to claim the throne as long as he is a man of the Night's Watch, and his only way to leave the Night's Watch is to die ("Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death...") and come back to live later on.



The only person I can think of that will be able to revive Jon is the one person that always hated him and was revived after her own death: Catelyn Stark aka Lady Stoneheart. If Melisandre was able to bring him back, no one would even believe he was dead. Everyone would just think she simply healed him. (I also think that the only reason for Beric Dondarrion being revived by Thoros of Myr and CS being revived by BD was to pass on the flame of life until it finally reaches Jon. That's why Beric Dondarrion finally died while bringing back CS. He had fulfilled his purpose.)



When CS revives JS she will die just like his mother died giving birth. It will be a metaphorical rebirth.



If things should really happen this way, Jon would probably stay dead for most of TWoW. Maybe he won't even return before ADoS. Until then his body would be preserved in one of the ice cells GRRM gave us so much information about in ADwD. Meanwhile his conscience would warg into Ghost (Otherwise I don't know what would be the purpose of the prolog chapter from ADwD.).


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He'll warg into Ghost temporarily before being resurrected. He could attempt to remain in command of the Night's Watch, but he would have to rule with such an iron fist that he might no longer be effective. Jon seems to have lost the popular consent which leaders require. If he is resurrected, then I think he will go Beyond the Wall again. GRRM has confirmed that WoW would go further north than ever, and Jon is really the only one in a position to do so. The significance of his death will be his discovery of his ability to warg, nothing more. The Night's Watch will probably split into two factions: those opposed to Jon and those loyal to Jon along with the wildlings. Those opposed to Jon are basically irrelevant. They are old, feeble, and few in number, and probably could not even stop a wildling raid, not to mention the full force of an army of Others. Only Jon's comrades and the wildlings matter now.

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I'm convinced Jon is dead because his death is necessary:

As the events at the ToJ indicate, he is the last trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and thus the rightful king of Westeros. But he will never be able to claim the throne as long as he is a man of the Night's Watch, and his only way to leave the Night's Watch is to die ("Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death...") and come back to live later on.

I have been skimming most of the Jon threads and this is the 1st time I have seen someone mention this. When I read of the assassination this was my thought. Now he has fullfilled his oath upon revival (I still think it will be Mel) Jon is free to claim Winterfell.

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I have been skimming most of the Jon threads and this is the 1st time I have seen someone mention this. When I read of the assassination this was my thought. Now he has fullfilled his oath upon revival (I still think it will be Mel) Jon is free to claim Winterfell.

I'm totally on board with this. GRRM is going to kill and resurrect Jon because it will release him from his Night's Watch oath and allow him to leave the Wall, get involved in wars, marry, take lands, have kids, etc. Not sure he will take the IT or become AA, but it will free his character up to go off in all sorts of new directions.

After he dies, he may well be on ice for a while per Bran's dream from AGOT ("He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.") There is a decent chance he will warg into Ghost for a little while. And I think it is highly likely that Mel will resurrect him.

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My theories for the North in the first part of TWoW (I need to get this out of the way before I can get to Jon's role in particular):

Right near the start of the book we get Theon's sample chapter and a Davos chapter. Davos has landed back in the North with Rickon, Osha, Shaggydog and an army of Skagosi. The army is planning to march to Winterfell. Through flashbacks we get the story of how he found Rickon.

Back at Stannis' camp we get two/three chapters. Theon's execution is interrupted by the Manderly and Frey forces and a short battle ensues. The Manderlys turn on the Freys and slaughter them. Wyman approaches Stannis and explains that he is on Stannis side, but the king replies that Wyman killed Davos. Wyman explains the deception and that Davos was sent to retrieve Rickon. Theon is declared innocent of killing the Stark boys, but Stannis is swift to remind him that he is still a turncloak and will still be executed. Wyman stops Stannis saying that they can still use Theon and Asha to treat with the Iron Islands. Stannis agrees to send Asha to Castle Black for her safety (with 'Arya'), but Theon will remain with Stannis as he knows information about Winterfell that could be advantageous.

Theon is with Stannis, who is outside Winterfell. We learn through Theon's thoughts that the plan is to disguise Stannis' men with the armour from the Frey soldiers so they can get inside without raising suspicion. When inside Wyman will present Roose with the head of a dead soldier that resembles Stannis, and will say that Theon and 'Arya' had already been sent to Castle Black when he got there. When they are in position, Stannis and Wymans men will turn on the Boltons when they don't expect it. Theon and Stannis hear a commotion and horns sound from inside the castle, and it is assumed that the plan has begun. The gates open and Wyman welcomes them into the Castle, and Winterfell falls to Stannis. Wyman tells them that Roose was killed in the fighting, and Ramsay, who ran off when the Wyman told them of Theon's 'escape', was captured sending off a raven to Castle Black. Ramsay is brought in front of Stannis, who declares that Ramsay will be given to the Red God. As Ramsay is dragged off he notices Theon and starts cursing.

NOTE: Everything above here would happen, chronologically, at the same time as the last section of ADwD, and before Jon's assassination.

We then get the first Melisadre chapter, which is set in the chaos just after Jon's death. Tormund is furious, but as he is outnumbered he decides to flee back to Oakenshield instead of trying to fight. Jon's corpse is placed in an ice cell. Melisandre watches all of this from the tower with Selyse and Shireen. Melisandre advises them to leave in the chaos while they can and take refuge in the Nightfort, while she stays behind to represent them. They agree.

We might get an Asha chapter to update us on them.

At Winterfell (where news is yet to reach them of the events at the Wall) Ramsay is burnt while Theon watches on. After Ramsay is dead Stannis takes council with the Northern Lords, and has Ramsay and Mance brought before them. They discuss what to do with the pair. Before they can reach a decision, however, a guard bursts in saying that a strange army has appeared outside Winterfell. Stannis tells them to chuck Theon and Mance in cells while they sort out the situation.

Davos stands at the gate of Winterfell with Rickon and a Skagosi Lord. They are let in and brought before Stannis (who almost smiles at seeing Davos again). There is a brief reunion, then Wyman comes forward and thanks Davos for "bringing the North their Stark... Their king". The northerners turn on Stannis and start slaughtering his men. Davos instantly springs into action to defend his king. Stannis manages to escape but Davos is killed. The chapter ends with chants of "King in the North!"

At the Wall we learn through Melisandre's thoughts that Bowen has sealed the gates and ceased all patrols North of the Wall. Bowen meets with her to discuss her position now that Stannis is dead. She replies that she means to head to the Nightfort to join with Selyse and Shireen. As Bowen begins to tell her that they are no longer welcome in the Nightfort they are interrupted by a watchmen who informs them that a group from Stannis' army has arrived. It is Asha, Jeyne and their guards (which probably includes Tris and Qarl). Asha informs them of what happened and Stannis/Wyman's plan to take Winterfell. Melisandre is quick to point out that it could mean the news of Stannis' death was false. Bowen agrees to let her stay until more news arrives from Winterfell. Jeyne's identity also comes to light in the chapter.

We get a Theon chapter updating us on Winterfell. He is visited by Osha and Rickon. I also think Mance will have been killed.

Back at the Wall Stannis arrives and is shown to Melisandre. He tells her of the events at Winterfell and demands to know why she deceived him in regards to Mance. She replies that it was the will of The Lord of light. She then informs him of Jon's death and that they will no longer be welcome at the Wall, and also lets slip that his sword isn't actually lightbringer. Seeing that his cause is completely lost, Stannis (the brittle iron) breaks, and leaves in silence (Melisandre assumes that he is going to the Nightfort). Melisandre then looks into the flames and reflects on her multiple mistakes with 'Arya' and on Stannis' failure. She finally realises that she has been trying to force prophecy and that Jon is actually Azor Ahai. She goes to his corpse in the ice cell and gives it the kiss of life.

Now, after half a book of being dead I can finally get to Jon's role in TWoW:

I think his arc will start immediately after the final Melisandre chapter. He will be warged into ghost then return to his body when she gives it the kiss of life. As he died, his vows to the Watch will be over. Upon hearing news about Rickon I think he will ride south to be with him (joined by Jeyne. As well as Asha and her men). He will then act as Rickon's regent for the second half of TWoW.

As regent I think his main focus will be to prepare the North for the fight against the Others. I think he will also summon Selyse and Tormund from the Wall. He will name Tormund Lord of the Dreadfort, and from Selyse he will learn that Stannis never arrived at the Nightfort. I also think he will send Asha and Theon back to the Iron Islands after making them swear that they will overthrow Euron and prepare the forces of the Iron Islands to fight the Others.

For ADoS:

I think the Wall will collapse in the prologue (After Sam blows his horn, that got repaired in Oldtown, in the final chapter of TWoW), and Stannis will be revealed to have allied himself with the Others. Jon's first half of ADoS would be focused trying (and failing) to lead the North against the Others. They will gradually get beaten back and will be forced to flee south. On the way through the Neck the remnant of the North will stop at Greywater Watch. It is there that we finally meet Howland Reed and get R+L=J around halfway through the book.

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My theories for the North in the first part of TWoW (I need to get this out of the way before I can get to Jon's role in particular):

Right near the start of the book we get Theon's sample chapter and a Davos chapter. Davos has landed back in the North with Rickon, Osha, Shaggydog and an army of Skagosi. The army is planning to march to Winterfell. Through flashbacks we get the story of how he found Rickon.

Back at Stannis' camp we get two/three chapters. Theon's execution is interrupted by the Manderly and Frey forces and a short battle ensues. The Manderlys turn on the Freys and slaughter them. Wyman approaches Stannis and explains that he is on Stannis side, but the king replies that Wyman killed Davos. Wyman explains the deception and that Davos was sent to retrieve Rickon. Theon is declared innocent of killing the Stark boys, but Stannis is swift to remind him that he is still a turncloak and will still be executed. Wyman stops Stannis saying that they can still use Theon and Asha to treat with the Iron Islands. Stannis agrees to send Asha to Castle Black for her safety (with 'Arya'), but Theon will remain with Stannis as he knows information about Winterfell that could be advantageous.

Theon is with Stannis, who is outside Winterfell. We learn through Theon's thoughts that the plan is to disguise Stannis' men with the armour from the Frey soldiers so they can get inside without raising suspicion. When inside Wyman will present Roose with the head of a dead soldier that resembles Stannis, and will say that Theon and 'Arya' had already been sent to Castle Black when he got there. When they are in position, Stannis and Wymans men will turn on the Boltons when they don't expect it. Theon and Stannis hear a commotion and horns sound from inside the castle, and it is assumed that the plan has begun. The gates open and Wyman welcomes them into the Castle, and Winterfell falls to Stannis. Wyman tells them that Roose was killed in the fighting, and Ramsay, who ran off when the Wyman told them of Theon's 'escape', was captured sending off a raven to Castle Black. Ramsay is brought in front of Stannis, who declares that Ramsay will be given to the Red God. As Ramsay is dragged off he notices Theon and starts cursing.

NOTE: Everything above here would happen, chronologically, at the same time as the last section of ADwD, and before Jon's assassination.

We then get the first Melisadre chapter, which is set in the chaos just after Jon's death. Tormund is furious, but as he is outnumbered he decides to flee back to Oakenshield instead of trying to fight. Jon's corpse is placed in an ice cell. Melisandre watches all of this from the tower with Selyse and Shireen. Melisandre advises them to leave in the chaos while they can and take refuge in the Nightfort, while she stays behind to represent them. They agree.

We might get an Asha chapter to update us on them.

At Winterfell (where news is yet to reach them of the events at the Wall) Ramsay is burnt while Theon watches on. After Ramsay is dead Stannis takes council with the Northern Lords, and has Ramsay and Mance brought before them. They discuss what to do with the pair. Before they can reach a decision, however, a guard bursts in saying that a strange army has appeared outside Winterfell. Stannis tells them to chuck Theon and Mance in cells while they sort out the situation.

Davos stands at the gate of Winterfell with Rickon and a Skagosi Lord. They are let in and brought before Stannis (who almost smiles at seeing Davos again). There is a brief reunion, then Wyman comes forward and thanks Davos for "bringing the North their Stark... Their king". The northerners turn on Stannis and start slaughtering his men. Davos instantly springs into action to defend his king. Stannis manages to escape but Davos is killed. The chapter ends with chants of "King in the North!"

At the Wall we learn through Melisandre's thoughts that Bowen has sealed the gates and ceased all patrols North of the Wall. Bowen meets with her to discuss her position now that Stannis is dead. She replies that she means to head to the Nightfort to join with Selyse and Shireen. As Bowen begins to tell her that they are no longer welcome in the Nightfort they are interrupted by a watchmen who informs them that a group from Stannis' army has arrived. It is Asha, Jeyne and their guards (which probably includes Tris and Qarl). Asha informs them of what happened and Stannis/Wyman's plan to take Winterfell. Melisandre is quick to point out that it could mean the news of Stannis' death was false. Bowen agrees to let her stay until more news arrives from Winterfell. Jeyne's identity also comes to light in the chapter.

We get a Theon chapter updating us on Winterfell. He is visited by Osha and Rickon. I also think Mance will have been killed.

Back at the Wall Stannis arrives and is shown to Melisandre. He tells her of the events at Winterfell and demands to know why she deceived him in regards to Mance. She replies that it was the will of The Lord of light. She then informs him of Jon's death and that they will no longer be welcome at the Wall, and also lets slip that his sword isn't actually lightbringer. Seeing that his cause is completely lost, Stannis (the brittle iron) breaks, and leaves in silence (Melisandre assumes that he is going to the Nightfort). Melisandre then looks into the flames and reflects on her multiple mistakes with 'Arya' and on Stannis' failure. She finally realises that she has been trying to force prophecy and that Jon is actually Azor Ahai. She goes to his corpse in the ice cell and gives it the kiss of life.

Now, after half a book of being dead I can finally get to Jon's role in TWoW:

I think his arc will start immediately after the final Melisandre chapter. He will be warged into ghost then return to his body when she gives it the kiss of life. As he died, his vows to the Watch will be over. Upon hearing news about Rickon I think he will ride south to be with him (joined by Jeyne. As well as Asha and her men). He will then act as Rickon's regent for the second half of TWoW.

As regent I think his main focus will be to prepare the North for the fight against the Others. I think he will also summon Selyse and Tormund from the Wall. He will name Tormund Lord of the Dreadfort, and from Selyse he will learn that Stannis never arrived at the Nightfort. I also think he will send Asha and Theon back to the Iron Islands after making them swear that they will overthrow Euron and prepare the forces of the Iron Islands to fight the Others.

For ADoS:

I think the Wall will collapse in the prologue (After Sam blows his horn, that got repaired in Oldtown, in the final chapter of TWoW), and Stannis will be revealed to have allied himself with the Others. Jon's first half of ADoS would be focused trying (and failing) to lead the North against the Others. They will gradually get beaten back and will be forced to flee south. On the way through the Neck the remnant of the North will stop at Greywater Watch. It is there that we finally meet Howland Reed and get R+L=J around halfway through the book.

The wildlings are not outnumbered, they have the numbers. There are only a few of Stannis' southerners and a few hundred men of the nights watch.

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He wargs into Ghost then learns about R + L = J and Ghost becomes the King of the Seven Kingdoms. Duh.


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The wildlings are not outnumbered, they have the numbers. There are only a few of Stannis' southerners and a few hundred men of the nights watch.

I might need to reread the last few Jon chapters, but I was under the impression that Tormund left most of his men at Oakenshield, and only had a small force with him at Castle Black?

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Wargs into Ghost. Body appears close to death, but he cannot return to it as it is in too bad of a condition. His body heals gradually, but dies anyway, with no explanation by the physicians. So he still cannot warg into it, as he is told by Bran that he must travel to the Land of always Winter to see something very important. He does and as his body is being burnt he returns to his body and arises from the flames, Longclaw in hand, set ablaze. Azor Ahai reborn!


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I might need to reread the last few Jon chapters, but I was under the impression that Tormund left most of his men at Oakenshield, and only had a small force with him at Castle Black?

When Jon reads the letter in the shield hall it is filled with wildlings.

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Jon (in my opinion) isn't dead and isn't going to be warging into Ghost somehow right before death. He may well have wolf dreams in a coma for a while.



I think he is clearly severely wounded and may well be left for dead by those in the Nights Watch that oppose him and I do think Melisandre will have a large part in his recovery.



I do not think he can die before he finds out his true parentage (I'm a big RL=J supporter) and I firmly believe his arc will culminate in a battle against The Others...possibly with Dany and her dragons at his side.


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Hi All. I'm new to the board.


I just recently finished ADwD and am more convinced now than ever that Jon is AA. GRRM basically beat us over the head with the symbolism on the last page.Jon's wounds smoke while Bowen Marsh cries, providing the prophecised salt and smoke, and Ser Patrek's bloody cloak with it's stars is flapping overhead.


Either that entire sequence was the prophecy, or it was placed there on purpose to throw us off. It's too coincidental.


I agree with what someone said earlier about him actually dying and being freed from the Night's Watch. I have been saying this exact thing for a long time, and I also believe that's why GRRM have him repeat his vows to Marsh in ADwD to remind us that the oath has an expiration clause.


Between Bran and Ned's POV in AGoT, we KNOW that there is something particularly special about Jon and that it involves the crypts at Winterfell. I would bet good money that it is proof of heritage in Lyanna's tomb as they were very particular in mentioning that Lyanna is the only female Stark ever to have been entombed there.


Someone also made mention of the cold and Jon moving in slow motion and that may herald the arrival of the Others at the wall. I think that it does mean something, because at that point Jon only has a knick on the neck and he is way too good a swordsman to fumble, so either the Others have arrived, or it is the gods making sure that he does nothing to offset the prophecy. Either way, we will know for sure in the Winds of Winter.


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I can't help but compare Jon's "death" to others we have seen for main or important characters in the books.



Ned - no head


Viseys - golden shower


Renly - sudden case of hole in the jugular


Robb + Cat - his head sewed on to his wolf and her bloodless corpse thrown in river


Joffrey - terminal lack of oxygen


Tywin - arrow in the bowels



In each of these cases we are left in no doubt as to their fate, yet with Jon it hangs "in the balance" which is such a departure from how G.R.R.M has dealt with character death that it can only suggest Jon's survival one way or the other. He always shows you what happens after the death scene and a little of the impact it has had on the world at large and the Game in particular. Jon is the first cliff-hanger "death" we've had in the series if I'm remembering right.


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I can't help but compare Jon's "death" to others we have seen for main or important characters in the books.

Ned - no head

Viseys - golden shower

Renly - sudden case of hole in the jugular

Robb + Cat - his head sewed on to his wolf and her bloodless corpse thrown in river

Joffrey - terminal lack of oxygen

Tywin - arrow in the bowels

In each of these cases we are left in no doubt as to their fate, yet with Jon it hangs "in the balance" which is such a departure from how G.R.R.M has dealt with character death that it can only suggest Jon's survival one way or the other. He always shows you what happens after the death scene and a little of the impact it has had on the world at large and the Game in particular. Jon is the first cliff-hanger "death" we've had in the series if I'm remembering right.

I believe you are remembering correctly, because other situations we were left in made people worry about a death that did not actually take place, Brans fall and Arya's axe to the head outside the Twins pop into mind. And another I just thought of, Bran and Rickon after Theon comes back with the millers boys.

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I can't help but compare Jon's "death" to others we have seen for main or important characters in the books.

Ned - no head

Viseys - golden shower

Renly - sudden case of hole in the jugular

Robb + Cat - his head sewed on to his wolf and her bloodless corpse thrown in river

Joffrey - terminal lack of oxygen

Tywin - arrow in the bowels

In each of these cases we are left in no doubt as to their fate, yet with Jon it hangs "in the balance" which is such a departure from how G.R.R.M has dealt with character death that it can only suggest Jon's survival one way or the other. He always shows you what happens after the death scene and a little of the impact it has had on the world at large and the Game in particular. Jon is the first cliff-hanger "death" we've had in the series if I'm remembering right.

I had a similar thought after I read aDwD. Although, Jon isn't the first cliffhanger death, that would be Brienne. But I did note, that until the Kevan Lannister epilogue, no one in the entire series had died in their own POV (except for Cat and ressurrections are an equaliser). There is always another POV to witness the death.

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I think that Jon will be very prominent in the next novel, and have the most POV chapters. The thing that we've been told a lot about warging is how quickly the animal's mind will overcome your own once you merge with it permanently, not to mention that they'll burn Jon's and the others bodies as soon as they can. I think he'll be revived close to the start of the novel and only be "dead" for a day or two tops.


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