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Role in WoW: Sansa Stark (Spoilers)


Ours if the Fury

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Sansa's likely direction is a function of 1) Chaos in KL 2) Tyrion's comeback and 3) Sweetrobin's survival.



With Kevan dead, the Lannisters and Tyrells will soon be on each other's throats and Cersei's best bet is to sneak out of KL with Tommen to the Rock. That leaves no one in power in KL really going after Sansa. The Tyrells effectively killed Joff but they can't publicly admit that, can they? But that also means they will not go after Sansa the way Cersei was. Once Cersei disappears from KL, Sansa will be free to unveil herself. But she won't be free to remarry yet, and I think a lot of us are overestimating the ease with which her marriage can be annulled.



When she is unveiled to the Vale, LF's hold on her will loosen, in fact his own hold on the Lord Protector's title will become tenuous. That's why he wanted five years for Cersei to do her thing in KL and he says he'll have to profit from the chaos now but I really don't see how. Taking LF's plans on face value, how exactly does he profit? If Sansa marries Harry, it's likely he will then get rid of Littlefinger, and if LF plans to use Sansa to get Winterfell, well that goes to Harry too. In fact, LF's position is strongest now, and Sweetrobin serves LF's interests just fine. So Robin's death and Sansa's marriage will leave LF in the cold. I suspect he knows this and has something up his sleeve.



Ultimately I think Sansa will remain in the Vale, running it on behalf Sweetrobin. The frail boy will beat all odds and survive. I don't think this Harry plot will amount to much. So by the time Dany arrives in the Vale, with Tyrion in tow, Sansa will have consolidated her power there. Their interaction, with Tyrion's interference, should be juicy.


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With Kevan dead, the Lannisters and Tyrells will soon be on each other's throats and Cersei's best bet is to sneak out of KL with Tommen to the Rock. That leaves no one in power in KL really going after Sansa. The Tyrells effectively killed Joff but they can't publicly admit that, can they? But that also means they will not go after Sansa the way Cersei was. Once Cersei disappears from KL, Sansa will be free to unveil herself.

No, Sansa won't be free even to unveil hersel just because Cersei has to abandon KL. As long as Cersei wields any kind of power, she will use it to hunt Sansa. She might hunt her even more bitterly, blaming her own loss of power on Sansa. And Cersei has the gold of the Lannister mines at her disposal if she goes to the Rock.

And the Tyrells... may not all know who killed Joffrey. The Queen of Thorns and Margaery most likely do, but not the others.

And while the Tyrells might not go after Sansa the way Cersei does, they have no reason to let Sansa off the hook for killing Joffrey. Sansa is no longer a pawn in their Game: she poses a danger to their interests now - either as Tyrion Lannister's wife or as Lady of the Vale. And Sansa holds potentially dangerous knowledge - they must fear that Sansa realized who poisoned Joffrey.

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I think Cersei killed Joffry but it was an accident because there is the scene in the wedding where Tyrion had had enough of Joffry's BS during the wedding. So Tyrion was going to leave the wedding with Sansa but Joffry told him that he could because Tyrion had not eaten a meat pie which would of brought bad luck. This pie was part of Tyrion's dish that was eating from so Joffry started to eat that pie I think Cersei wanted to kill Tyrion but Joffry started eating from Tyrion's dish. So Joffry was poisoned from a dish that was ment for Tyrion not Joffry clearly Cersei could not admit to what she had done now that Tommin became King.


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I think Cersei killed Joffry but it was an accident because there is the scene in the wedding where Tyrion had had enough of Joffry's BS during the wedding. So Tyrion was going to leave the wedding with Sansa but Joffry told him that he could because Tyrion had not eaten a meat pie which would of brought bad luck. This pie was part of Tyrion's dish that was eating from so Joffry started to eat that pie I think Cersei wanted to kill Tyrion but Joffry started eating from Tyrion's dish. So Joffry was poisoned from a dish that was ment for Tyrion not Joffry clearly Cersei could not admit to what she had done now that Tommin became King.

No, the Queen of Thorns killled Joffery with Margaery and Littlefinger and Dontos.

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No, Sansa won't be free even to unveil hersel just because Cersei has to abandon KL. As long as Cersei wields any kind of power, she will use it to hunt Sansa. She might hunt her even more bitterly, blaming her own loss of power on Sansa. And Cersei has the gold of the Lannister mines at her disposal if she goes to the Rock.

And the Tyrells... may not all know who killed Joffrey. The Queen of Thorns and Margaery most likely do, but not the others.

And while the Tyrells might not go after Sansa the way Cersei does, they have no reason to let Sansa off the hook for killing Joffrey. Sansa is no longer a pawn in their Game: she poses a danger to their interests now - either as Tyrion Lannister's wife or as Lady of the Vale. And Sansa holds potentially dangerous knowledge - they must fear that Sansa realized who poisoned Joffrey.

Yea this is very correct

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Sansa's arc reall y depends on her marriage to tyrion and wether she can get it annulled. Nobody knows if Tyrion is alive or dead...and the Lannisters are still a very powerful family who wield considerable influence ...so it might not be so easy to get it annulled. Plus ...will the Lords of the Vale actually believe that it is truly Sansa Stark when she is unveiled....will the believe Petyr, a man they really despise...


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No, Sansa won't be free even to unveil hersel just because Cersei has to abandon KL. As long as Cersei wields any kind of power, she will use it to hunt Sansa. She might hunt her even more bitterly, blaming her own loss of power on Sansa. And Cersei has the gold of the Lannister mines at her disposal if she goes to the Rock.

And the Tyrells... may not all know who killed Joffrey. The Queen of Thorns and Margaery most likely do, but not the others.

And while the Tyrells might not go after Sansa the way Cersei does, they have no reason to let Sansa off the hook for killing Joffrey. Sansa is no longer a pawn in their Game: she poses a danger to their interests now - either as Tyrion Lannister's wife or as Lady of the Vale. And Sansa holds potentially dangerous knowledge - they must fear that Sansa realized who poisoned Joffrey.

Yes, Cersei will still try to go after Sansa, probably with more vigour. Sansa will remain hidden for a while yet (it is more complicated than I made it sound in my previous post) but think about the chaos about to befall KL. Either Cersei dies or she sneaks out and she won't runaway without Tommen, the King. So she still needs to ensure that Tommen somehow is not disadvantaged. If she flees off with Tommen, her first priority is making sure his crown is secure and that she has enough swords, hunting Sansa could be down the list of priorities. The Tyrells won't have it their way either, the Martells have the Sandsnakes in the Faith and in the Small Council, and "Aegon" somewhere. When Sansa unveils herself, obviously it will be with the Lords Declarants' cooperation, she will be secure. Her presence in many ways is a defiance to KL, it's a declaration of war in fact. So her unveiling should be carefully orchestrated, if not by Littlefinger then by the Lord's Declarants and possibly the Blackfish himself. At some point, she will be Lady of the Vale, Niece of Riverrun and Daughter of Winterfell - standing up to Cersei is part of her growth phase.

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Another interesting thought I came across a while ago was the Grand Vale Conspiracy, where the Royce that LF believes he has in his pocket, along with the other Lords of the Vale, have simply been waiting until SweetRobin and LF came down from the Eyrie for the Winter and then spring their trap of taking Robin from him and assuming rulership of the Vale themselves. This situation would totally take LF from the blind side, and change the situation dramatically for the whole storyline. Granted Corbray would be able to give LF a heads up if he managed to become a part of the scheme, so it'd be a matter of people being on to him, or just not wanting him involved because he's dangerous.


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Plus ...will the Lords of the Vale actually believe that it is truly Sansa Stark when she is unveiled....will the believe Petyr, a man they really despise...

Confirming Sansa's identity is really not that big an issue, I don't think. Plenty of people have seen her, including Royce, who (even if he didn't actually figure out who she was then) clearly had an echo of recognition that she could just confirm. As well, most of the Vale nobility have met her mother, of whom she's supposedly a photocopy, and have had prolonged experience with Lysa, her aunt. And finally, the manner of Sansa's disappearance and the appearance of Alayne would lend credence to it.

As far as Sansa's story goes, the scheme that Baelish outlines at the end of AFFC, while it probably is his plan, is unlikely to advance very far in practice. It hinges on too many factors that are not likely going to be satisfied in the short-term, principally the issue of Tyrion's life -- absent some sort of workaround being developed. That means that any actual wedding with Harry is not on the horizon; and, by the same token, a number of people have become certain that the "controversial" chapter is going to be about Sansa helping Littlefinger kill little Robert, but there's no version of events where Littlefinger would want Robert's death so soon. Robert can only die once the marriage is agreed to and probably close at hand, otherwise Baelish loses his power as Lord Protector.

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I think Cersei killed Joffry but it was an accident because there is the scene in the wedding where Tyrion had had enough of Joffry's BS during the wedding. So Tyrion was going to leave the wedding with Sansa but Joffry told him that he could because Tyrion had not eaten a meat pie which would of brought bad luck. This pie was part of Tyrion's dish that was eating from so Joffry started to eat that pie I think Cersei wanted to kill Tyrion but Joffry started eating from Tyrion's dish. So Joffry was poisoned from a dish that was ment for Tyrion not Joffry clearly Cersei could not admit to what she had done now that Tommin became King.

Joff did not get poisoned from the meat pie....he got poisenoned from the chalise where he was consuming copious amounts of poisoned wine

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I link to this somewhat often, but Littlefinger's plans need to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99141-bad-news-baelish-or-purple-wedding-20/#entry5100423



He is just as likely to kill Sansa if one thinks on it long enough. Because maryring her to Harold so they can claim the Eyrie and the North all the while knowing Baelish is a very bad person... why would he do that?






Well hers and LF's first priority should be to get her marriage to Tyrion annulled. Which shouldn't be to hard since it was a forced marriage, and never consummated. I personally suspect Sweet Robin to die early on in WoW, and Sansa to marry Harry. It will be interesting what happens if Davos brings Rickon back, all of a sudden there's a couple Starks back in the game. I would say A is most likely.





Only a High Septon can annul a marriage, and the High Sparrow is smart enough to realize annulling the marriage of the daughter (and only known living heir) of a Lord Paramount and the son of another Lord Paramount so she can marry the heir of a third Lord Paramount... is incredibly political. It is almost right up there with choosing which pretender to crown, because these marriage alliances could have long reaching implications for Westeros. At the very least, I suspect the High Sparrow would want to talk to Sansa. This is one of the reasons why I think the marriage to Harold isn't going to happen. Tyrion isn't going to die, and the annulment is difficult for an accused regicide to obtain.



The fact Sansa is accused of the murder of Joffrey and the attempted murder of Margaery really complicates the issue. If the High Sparrow thinks Sansa is a poisoner alongside her husband who was already found of the same crime, would he "award" her a new lordly husband until the issue is settled one way or another? Because this guy is really big on punishing sins and seems to hold the nobility in contempt for their role in the War of the 5 Kings, which was devastating to the common folk and the septries in the Riverlands.


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My pet theory on Sansa...

When Tyrone kills Tywin.....he sheep shifted him...hence the very bad smell that Tywin made when his body was laid out and at his funeral. Im pretty sure Tyrone did this in order to give Sansa a giggle should he ever run into her again.

Meanwhile Sans has been pawed at and lusted at by evety man she seems to come across....sh is growing up to realise her husband is in fact thd only man who has consistently been kind and respectful of her without personal agenda. She was raised to respect marriage si begins to think about the integrety of Tyrone.

Ultimately the man and wife unite...clearly with the blessing of Jon Snow and Bran....both of whom Tyrone has been unconditionally kind too.

In the end its this union that reunites the relm. The couple will live in Winterfell

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H - Petyr's plan goes ahead, but a certain unicorn riding male heir is unveiled by Davos before Sansa can claim the North and bad things ensue. Sansa and Rickon end up in a civil war against their wills (Petyr's and Stannis' will)



I - Petyr's plan goes ahead and Daenerys lands at the end of the book, good things ensue. Petyr, Sansa, Tyrion and Daenerys form an alliance to go against (f)aegon and dorne



J - None of Petyr's plan goes ahead, Sansa tries to get her marriage annulled, but she learns how the high septon treats criminals and/or the faith militant get involved. Bad things ensue



Personally I like the idea of Jaime saving her


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My pet theory on Sansa...

When Tyrone kills Tywin.....he sheep shifted him...hence the very bad smell that Tywin made when his body was laid out and at his funeral. Im pretty sure Tyrone did this in order to give Sansa a giggle should he ever run into her again.

Meanwhile Sans has been pawed at and lusted at by evety man she seems to come across....sh is growing up to realise her husband is in fact thd only man who has consistently been kind and respectful of her without personal agenda. She was raised to respect marriage si begins to think about the integrety of Tyrone.

Ultimately the man and wife unite...clearly with the blessing of Jon Snow and Bran....both of whom Tyrone has been unconditionally kind too.

In the end its this union that reunites the relm. The couple will live in Winterfell

While I love every bit of this pet theory, it seems a bit too "happily ever after-ish" for GRRM

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I am not prepared to guess at Sansa's entire storyline, but everyone saying that Sansa CAN'T marry someone else without getting her marriage to Tyrion annulled are joking themselves. So everyone else can pull everything they have pulled in the story and rule without question, but Sansa cannot do something even slightly questionable? Give me a break, power lies where men think it lies, you all know this.


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I am not prepared to guess at Sansa's entire storyline, but everyone saying that Sansa CAN'T marry someone else without getting her marriage to Tyrion annulled are joking themselves. So everyone else can pull everything they have pulled in the story and rule without question, but Sansa cannot do something even slightly questionable? Give me a break, power lies where men think it lies, you all know this.

I do encourage you to read some of the history of Rachel Donelson.

Essentially, she married a ne'er-do-well, who she was in the process of divorcing when she met Andrew Jackson. Yes, that Andrew Jackson, president from 1829-1837, the founder of the Democratic Party in America, and one of the most divisive political figures in American history. Regardless, they were in love and got married... before the divorce was finalized. There is evidence they thought the divorce was finalized, and the exact legalities probably wouldn't have mattered since Rachel was effectively separated from her first husband... except Jackson was a major US political figure. During the election of 1828, his opponent John Quincy Adam made certain newspapers ran stories of her bigamy. One Cincinnati newspaper asked if "Ought a convicted adulteress and her paramour husband be placed in the highest offices of this free and Christian land?"

Andrew Jackson literally killed a man who insulted his wife over this; risking his own life in a duel to do so "honorably." He lived the rest of his life with a bullet lodged in his chest as a result of that duel.

Poor Rachel died in 1828, the same year as the election. Though she was 61 so this was not unexpected, Jackson none the less blamed the smear campaign done by John Quincy and never forgave him.

So, what does this have to do with Sansa and Tyrion? You drew the wrong lesson from "power lies where men think it lies." It means appearance matters, a lot. Mary the peasant can get away with bigamy and no one would really complain except village gossips. However, if Sansa and Harold get married without a documented annulment or a dead Tyrion, their children would be, by law, bastards. If an enemy shines light on this fact, then it becomes a great way to legally disinherit all their children. Could they go through with the ceremony anyways? Yes. Do they actually have the strength to stop an enemy from forceably disinheriting them? Depends on the enemy, but unlike the Targaryens of old, they don't have Dragons. And even with Dragons the Faith's objections to Targaryen marriage practices was at the heart of a prolonged revolt against Targaryen rule.

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Appearances do matter. Littlefinger knows that. He thinks that Sansa's grip on the Vale will be strong enough, with the rest of Westeros in disarray. And he is planning very carefully her appearance as Lady of the Vale.



Littlefinger's plans may shift if he finds evidence of Tyrion's whereabouts. Probably he'll just send assassins after Tyrion, though. Sansa's controversial chapter might be nothing more than her marrying Harold knowing fully well that Tyrion is not yet dead.



Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was never consummated. Everyone in KL seemed to know about that, and joked about it. Tywin was furious about it - but I don't think it was entirely due to the jokes. It was because a marriage isn't valid until consummated. So will the Faith really object strongly if Sansa announces her intention to marry for real this time? I don't think they will as long as Sansa and Harold demonstrate that they are faithful servants of the Seven.



After all, Tyrion the Dwarf is convicted of regicide, and we know he is guilty of killing his father. He is a dead man walking as far as Westros' current rulers are concerned. They may see Sansa as his accomplice in murdering Joffrey, but she had no part in Tywin's death. If Sansa and Littlefinger can shift the blame for Joffrey's death to Tyrion completely, Sansa is for all intents and purposes a widow.


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Appearances do matter. Littlefinger knows that. He thinks that Sansa's grip on the Vale will be strong enough, with the rest of Westeros in disarray. And he is planning very carefully her appearance as Lady of the Vale.

Littlefinger's plans may shift if he finds evidence of Tyrion's whereabouts. Probably he'll just send assassins after Tyrion, though. Sansa's controversial chapter might be nothing more than her marrying Harold knowing fully well that Tyrion is not yet dead.

Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was never consummated. Everyone in KL seemed to know about that, and joked about it. Tywin was furious about it - but I don't think it was entirely due to the jokes. It was because a marriage isn't valid until consummated. So will the Faith really object strongly if Sansa announces her intention to marry for real this time? I don't think they will as long as Sansa and Harold demonstrate that they are faithful servants of the Seven.

After all, Tyrion the Dwarf is convicted of regicide, and we know he is guilty of killing his father. He is a dead man walking as far as Westros' current rulers are concerned. They may see Sansa as his accomplice in murdering Joffrey, but she had no part in Tywin's death. If Sansa and Littlefinger can shift the blame for Joffrey's death to Tyrion completely, Sansa is for all intents and purposes a widow.

Exposing Joff and the rest of Cersei’s brood as bastards born of incest would tie things up pretty nicely. Between Tyrion and Varys, I’m sure they can come up with something. Tyrion would likely want some assurances for the safety of Tommen and Myrcella first.

As for Sansa, I expect WoW to be her coming out party. She will soon discover LF for what he is and what he did to her father. Her role is to outdo the master at his own game and dispose of him.

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I do encourage you to read some of the history of Rachel Donelson.

Essentially, she married a ne'er-do-well, who she was in the process of divorcing when she met Andrew Jackson. Yes, that Andrew Jackson, president from 1829-1837, the founder of the Democratic Party in America, and one of the most divisive political figures in American history. Regardless, they were in love and got married... before the divorce was finalized. There is evidence they thought the divorce was finalized, and the exact legalities probably wouldn't have mattered since Rachel was effectively separated from her first husband... except Jackson was a major US political figure. During the election of 1828, his opponent John Quincy Adam made certain newspapers ran stories of her bigamy. One Cincinnati newspaper asked if "Ought a convicted adulteress and her paramour husband be placed in the highest offices of this free and Christian land?"

Andrew Jackson literally killed a man who insulted his wife over this; risking his own life in a duel to do so "honorably." He lived the rest of his life with a bullet lodged in his chest as a result of that duel.

Poor Rachel died in 1828, the same year as the election. Though she was 61 so this was not unexpected, Jackson none the less blamed the smear campaign done by John Quincy and never forgave him.

So, what does this have to do with Sansa and Tyrion? You drew the wrong lesson from "power lies where men think it lies." It means appearance matters, a lot. Mary the peasant can get away with bigamy and no one would really complain except village gossips. However, if Sansa and Harold get married without a documented annulment or a dead Tyrion, their children would be, by law, bastards. If an enemy shines light on this fact, then it becomes a great way to legally disinherit all their children. Could they go through with the ceremony anyways? Yes. Do they actually have the strength to stop an enemy from forceably disinheriting them? Depends on the enemy, but unlike the Targaryens of old, they don't have Dragons. And even with Dragons the Faith's objections to Targaryen marriage practices was at the heart of a prolonged revolt against Targaryen rule.

We shall see who drew the wrong lesson, and I have no need to read a story I am already familiar with. Perhaps you should read up on your history tho, Jackson won 2 presidential elections, your own point seems to argue in favor of Sansa being able to marry and rule.

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