Queen Sansa Stark Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Since when teenagers talking, thinking, and dreaming about sex is considered controversial? Like, at all? I always thought it had to be something more in that Sansa chapter, if it truly was to cause controversy. I am not so sure about that. There was quite the Dany hate when ADWD came out. Nothing is more controversial than a woman taking control of her sexuality and even worse enjoy it. Though what also is possible is Sansa hearing about the news of the Saltpans and her reaction on it might be controversial for san'san fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkSister Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Maybe Sweet Robin got an overdose after all? :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Maybe Sweet Robin got an overdose after all? :( No don't say such thing. I would be crushed if that happens :crying:. The only thing that keeps me hope is that plans that are laid out in detail will most likely not happen. I won't accept sweet robin's death. I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Maybe Sweet Robin got an overdose after all? :( I saw spec that when Sweetrobin fell asleep during the descent, he fell into a coma from which he won't wake, or that he'll die. In light of the "controversial" thing, though, I dunno. It's not particularly controversial if Sansa accidentally caused Sweetrobin to overdose on sweetsleep, since Colemon was only warning her about the long-term effects and said nothing about the short-term risk of overdose. Sansa's accidentally or unintentionally caused bad things to happen before with no ill intent, so there's not really anything controversial about that. Sansa knowing that Sweetrobin is being poisoned by Littlefinger and doing nothing to stop it or even participating in it, on the other hand...That's moral point of no return territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 In light of the release of the Arya chapter, which contains an 11-year-old being molested twice and seducing someone three times her age with practiced ease, and which was not identified as potentially controversial--despite clearly having proven to be very controversial, given fan reactions to Arya's sexualization--I think we really need to revisit our speculation about the "controversial" aspect of Sansa's chapter. If it's the Sansa chapter, and not the Arya chapter, that was identified as the potentially controversial one by someone familiar with both, then the Sansa chapter must be way more fucked up. I had thought before that the Sansa chapter couldn't contain anything too wild, as it was suggested it might only be controversial in some quarters of the fandom (and my thought was that anything too crazy would definitely piss off the fandom in its entirety). After reading the Arya chapter, though, all bets are off. I'm thinking the Sansa chapter has to contain Sansa having sex under fucked-up circumstances (with Littlefinger, probably), Sansa being raped, Sansa participating in Sweetrobin's murder, or something equally shocking and intense to top the Arya chapter. I don't think Sansa dies--although who knows?--but it's going to be something very big and something very nasty: for some, it's going to be throw-the-book-across-the-room-and-vow-never-to-pick-it-up-again nasty. Sex dreams. sex talks, etc. are not going to cut it in the controversy department. Since when teenagers talking, thinking, and dreaming about sex is considered controversial? Like, at all? I always thought it had to be something more in that Sansa chapter, if it truly was to cause controversy. Since forever, apparently, if it's teenage girls rather than boys. Dany's relationship with Daario is far more controversial in this fandom than any of the sexual violence towards women in the show. ETA: And it's not just about teenagers, apparently; these articles about MPAA attitudes towards sex in movies are very telling (though they were really surprising to me, at first). http://open.salon.com/blog/scott_mendelson/2011/03/28/mpaa_women_enjoying_sex_r_women_hating_sex_pg-13http://flavorwire.com/430289/why-did-wolf-of-wall-street-get-a-pass-from-the-mpaa-when-feminist-films-dont-a-conversation-with-jill-soloway/http://www.celebitchy.com/336895/evan_rachel_wood_rants_against_the_mpaa_for_shaming_women_for_enjoying_sex/ In short: MPAA apparently gives harsher ratings to movies that show women enjoying sex, than the movies that show women as prostitutes and objects, or even movies showing women being raped and sexually molested. Newstar, can any sexual violence and rape of teenage girl top Jeyne Poole's story? But Theon's chapters in ADWD aren't controversial. Everyone agrees it's an awful thing and Ramsey is a monster, what's the controversy? Also, we have a precedent in Elio using the expression "may cause controversy in some corners of the fandom", and it was about Brienne's show line "You sound like a bloody woman". He clearly wasn't using it in the meaning of "shocking and uncomfortable", but in the meaning "some people will really dislike it and be angry, while others won't see a problem with it" or "people will have different opinions about it". Arya's behavior in her chapter may be uncomfortable, but I don't see it having caused any particular controversy. (TBH I wasn't even particularly surprised, or if anything, I was just surprised that she got there so fast. ) Besides, I got the impression from one of Elio's interviews that this controversy is mostly about another character, a "new character" (Harry?) rather than about Sansa herself, and he's said that it may not be about anything she does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Besides, I got the impression from one of Elio's interviews that this controversy is mostly about another character, a "new character" (Harry?) rather than about Sansa herself, and he's said that it may not be about anything she does. Hmmm...perhaps Harry, is going to make a less than favorable impression to readers as a suitor...or maybe LF will be especially creepy even for him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Newstar, can any sexual violence and rape of teenage girl top Jeyne Poole's story? But Theon's chapters in ADWD aren't controversial. Everyone agrees it's an awful thing and Ramsey is a monster, what's the controversy? Sort of a silly comparison, wouldn't you say? The Red Wedding was monstrously controversial not because a female character's throat was slit and her son was murdered before her very eyes--that's pretty tame in ASOIAF--but because it was Catelyn, a POV Stark, and Robb, one of the Stark siblings, who were murdered. Surely you can grasp why there would be a big difference in terms of controversy generated between a rape of a minor non-POV young female character--since again, that's pretty tame in ASOIAF--and a rape of a POV young female Stark. Also, we have a precedent in Elio using the expression "may cause controversy in some corners of the fandom", and it was about Brienne's show line "You sound like a bloody woman". He clearly wasn't using it in the meaning of "shocking and uncomfortable", but in the meaning "some people will really dislike it and be angry, while others won't see a problem with it" or "people will have different opinions about it". I don't see how that really contradicts my point. The Arya chapter was very much disliked by and caused anger in certain fans--at least where Arya's sexualization and actions were concerned--while others didn't have a problem with it. However, despite this sexualized content, it was the Sansa chapter and not the Arya chapter which earned the "potentially controversial" label. Arya's behavior in her chapter may be uncomfortable, but I don't see it having caused any particular controversy. Then you haven't been paying attention to the fan reactions, I would say. Besides, I got the impression from one of Elio's interviews that this controversy is mostly about another character, a "new character" (Harry?) rather than about Sansa herself, and he's said that it may not be about anything she does. Could be, but I think the thinking is that the controversy would have to relate to something done to Sansa or by Sansa to generate any controversy, since there's no one else in the Vale at the moment the fans are particularly invested in. Why would they have any particular feelings about something done or said by some random asshole that doesn't affect Sansa directly? Random assholes doing horrible things are a dime a dozen in this series. "Random assholes doing horrible things" is a pretty good summary of large chunks of the series so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Sort of a silly comparison, wouldn't you say? The Red Wedding was monstrously controversial not because a female character's throat was slit and her son was murdered before her very eyes--that's pretty tame in ASOIAF--but because it was Catelyn, a POV Stark, and Robb, one of the Stark siblings, who were murdered. Surely you can grasp why there would be a big difference in terms of controversy generated between a rape of a minor non-POV young female character--since again, that's pretty tame in ASOIAF--and a rape of a POV young female Stark. I don't see how that really contradicts my point. The Arya chapter was very much disliked by and caused anger in certain fans--at least where Arya's sexualization and actions were concerned--while others didn't have a problem with it. However, despite this sexualized content, it was the Sansa chapter and not the Arya chapter which earned the "potentially controversial" label. Then you haven't been paying attention to the fan reactions, I would say. Could be, but I think the thinking is that the controversy would have to relate to something done to Sansa or by Sansa to generate any controversy, since there's no one else in the Vale at the moment the fans are particularly invested in. Why would they have any particular feelings about something "controversial" done by some random asshole that doesn't affect Sansa directly? Random assholes doing horrible things are a dime a dozen in this series. "Random assholes doing horrible things" is a pretty good summary of large chunks of the series so far. Define "controversial". You seem to be using "controversial" as a synonym for "shocking". Red Wedding was shocking, for sure. But controversial? I don't think so. "Controversial", as I understand it, is something that causes a lot of disagreement and conflicting opinions and that's hotly debated. What's controversial about the Red Wedding? Most people seem to agree that: 1) it was a horrible crime, 2) Walder Frey is the worst and we hate the Freys, 3) we grieve for Cat and Robb, 4) while tragic, it was a great plot twist. The only controversy I can think of concerns the changes from the book to the TV adaptation, i.e. whether Talisa's death is a justified change. The Red Wedding is no more controversial than Joffrey is a controversial character. Everybody hates him and thinks he is little shit. That's not controversy. Now, Catelyn, Sansa, Stannis, Dany, Tyrion among book readers, Cersei, Theon, Robert Baratheon, these characters could be called controversial, since they have both fans and haters. Now, there are RW-related topics that are actually controversial: such as "is Robb to blame for the Freys' betrayal", "Was Robb an idiot", "Did Robb love his wife", or "What should be done with the Freys", not to mention "What do you think about the Robb/Talisa romance on the show?" But not the actual RW itself. Re: "Mercy" - I've read some 20+ pages of the first thread here and a few pages of the second, and the WiC thread, and most people agreed that it was a great chapter; Arya's behavior as "seductress" was mentioned as uncomfortable, but I have seen maybe two people, tops, who were angered by it. Also, I don't see how you can compare Arya's chapter to a rape of a POV character. It's pretty much the complete opposite of it. Arya is not a victim, she is completely in control, and the "sexualization" is a role she is playing in order to kill a guy. IMO the chapter offers some support for the theory that she is asexual (which I'm otherwise not supporting, since I think it's too early to tell, as she's still pre-pubescent; however, the chapter was originally written with a 16-year old Arya in mind) since she seems to be thinking of sexuality as just a means to an end, and is completely disassociated from it. Additionally, when an 11-year old is an experienced cold-blooded serial murderer training to become an assassin, it seems a little OTT to be shocked when she lets a creepy guy put a tongue into her mouth in order to get in the position to kill him. The fact that she has been changing faces and identities in order to get into the position to kill people is also really creepy, so being shocked by this chapter but not everything that came before, also seems a bit OTT to me. Why would they have any particular feelings about something done or said by some random asshole that doesn't affect Sansa directly? Random assholes doing horrible things are a dime a dozen in this series. "Random assholes doing horrible things" is a pretty good summary of large chunks of the series so far. For a character to be controversial, they can't simply be an asshole - then they're simply assholes/villains. They have to be assholes in some peoples eyes and likable and/or awesome people in other people's eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberKlown28 Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The controversial Sansa chapter, my guess is a rape by Petyr, which will lead to her killing him later in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The controversial Sansa chapter, my guess is a rape by Petyr, which will lead to her killing him later in the book. GRRM said he won't write rape pov chapters. So no sexual violence will happen in that chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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