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Was Ned Really That Bad of a Catch for Ashara Dayne


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Well, I don't actually want to put too high of a value on Ashara's looks, actually. They just indicate a somewhat higher quality of nobility than you normally get from second-tier houses. Remember how puffy Robb Stark got over Westerlings vs. Freys? Daynes might be second-tier, but very respectable for all that. I just think a somewhat more local match for her would have been more in her family's interest, as things stood, than a Northern one. Even if it was to tradtional enemies. Likewise, for Ned, it might have made more sense, politically, to marry him off to a Northern family that might be tilting a little, than to bring him a woman from Dorne. Like I said before, I think it could have worked without the rebellion and all the chaos, provided both families had secure lines of heirs, but circumstances intervened.

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isn't Oberyn like 5 years older than Ned?

So he was, my mistake.

So that reinforces the point. Oberyn was the exception to the rule, explained away by his prodigy status. But in fact Oberyn was part of the rule. Everyone Ashara danced (or talked to (Brandon) with apart from Ned was well over 20. Ned was the shy little brother who's big brother pulls him into the cool kids (sic) crowd for one dance.

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  • 2 weeks later...

IMO Ned was definitely one of the best catches for and non great house. He has many political connections (The North, Vale, Stormlands, and Riverlands) and any family would be crazy not to want to attach themselves to such an alliance

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Well we know that the Blackfish (2nd son) was considered a suitable match for a Redwyn, Redwyn's are one of the richest houses in the Reach, they have one of the largest fleets in Westeros, and presumably they can field huge amounts of men. The Daynes are an old name, sure, but it seems unlikely they are particularly rich or powerful, they are from a lowly populated region, and we know of no important commodities they produce, so even if a Stark < Tully, it should still be a very good match for house Dayne.



As for what is in the interest of the families, it wouldn't actually be a huge benefit either way, though I don't think that means Ned was "a bad catch" just that the families are to geographically separated for any marriage to matter too much.


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Unless it was Howland Reed (which I hope is true) then I want it to be Ned who "dishonored" her.

You want Ned to be a flaming asshole, really? The guy who in the whole of AGoT never spared a thought for his "great love" who suicided _because of him_, for their stillborn daughter? The guy who was free to marry her and save her from dishonor, but never even tried?

And make no mistake, Ned was in rare position to defy Lord Rickard about it, even, given his close relationships with Lords paramount of the Vale and the Stormlands, both.

The problem was not the match, but then Lyanna's abduction, Brandon Stark's marriage, and then the war. They certainly had a thing for each other, but then Ned had to marry Catelyn and that was the end of it.

Except, no. There was at least half a year and possibly more between these events. Ned had all the time in the world to marry Ashara, if he was the father of her child. Yet, as far as anybody knows, he never even made any moves in that direction. Robert, "closer than a brother" and not yet a completely oblivious sod he became later, was wholly unaware of any feelings between the 2.

Speaking about appropriatness of the marriage... yes, it is not advantagious geographically, but did Rickard really intend for Ned to come back north and be Brandon's XO? That would have made Ned's upbringing in the south and close ties to Jon Arryn and Robert a bit of a waste, no? IMHO, it is far more likely that Rickard hoped that Ned would represent the Stark interests in the south. And as such, marriage into respected second-tier family that was close to the Crown Prince couldn't have been an altogether bad thing from his PoV, IMHO.

For Daynes, it may not have been the best option at the first glance, but with Ashara pregnant, they didn't have much choice. And a second son of a paramount, with such great ties to the Vale and the Stormlands was nothing to sneeze at, so it was certainly pretty good anyway.

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Interesting.

Goddamnit onion. Leave me alone! I just got some horrible terrible news.

Apes a poppin is not a real thing man. I'm sure your as shocked as I am but it's the truth. They don't have apes a poppin at Disney. It's just a stupid Simpsons sketch.

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Was Bethany Redwyne a second daughter?

Was a marriage between her and Brynden possible? Or was it just Hoster being hopeful?

Considering that Daven Lannister's father tries to marry his son to the only female child of Paxter Redwyne, the current lord of House Redwyne I'd say, that he would have had a shot.

Daven Lannister is the cousin to the current Lannisters because his father is the sibling of Tywin Lannister's wife. ( I do not know how far away in the succession he seems to be, but it should be pretty far, since Joanna Lannister was at least Tywin's cousin and female at that. Compared to this marriage the marriage between Brynden and the Redwyne girl would have been great since Brynden is the younger son of the current lord and not the cousin through kinship with his mother. (Daven's father is described as a bit of an idiot, so this could be just another case of someone deluded, though)

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You want Ned to be a flaming asshole, really? The guy who in the whole of AGoT never spared a thought for his "great love" who suicided _because of him_, for their stillborn daughter? The guy who was free to marry her and save her from dishonor, but never even tried?

And make no mistake, Ned was in rare position to defy Lord Rickard about it, even, given his close relationships with Lords paramount of the Vale and the Stormlands, both.

Except, no. There was at least half a year and possibly more between these events. Ned had all the time in the world to marry Ashara, if he was the father of her child. Yet, as far as anybody knows, he never even made any moves in that direction. Robert, "closer than a brother" and not yet a completely oblivious sod he became later, was wholly unaware of any feelings between the 2.

Speaking about appropriatness of the marriage... yes, it is not advantagious geographically, but did Rickard really intend for Ned to come back north and be Brandon's XO? That would have made Ned's upbringing in the south and close ties to Jon Arryn and Robert a bit of a waste, no? IMHO, it is far more likely that Rickard hoped that Ned would represent the Stark interests in the south. And as such, marriage into respected second-tier family that was close to the Crown Prince couldn't have been an altogether bad thing from his PoV, IMHO.

For Daynes, it may not have been the best option at the first glance, but with Ashara pregnant, they didn't have much choice. And a second son of a paramount, with such great ties to the Vale and the Stormlands was nothing to sneeze at, so it was certainly pretty good anyway.

This is an analysis I tend to agree with.

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I think Ashara probably could have done better than Ned.

She was from a very famous nobel family.

Her brother was best friends with the future king.

She was very beautiful.

This seems to utterly pale in comparison to what Ned had to offer at the time.

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Are the Daynes even considered a major house in Dorne?

They are at best (and I dont even think it would be the case) the third most powerful house in Dorne behind the Martells and Yronwoods. And they dont appear to be anywhere near the power of the Yronwoods.

They have had a larger part to play in the story than what their actual standing is in Westeros I think

Second son of Paramount House - Second Daughter of 3rd Tier house

If anyone is marrying down it would be Ned.

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How do we know Ashara wasn't an heiress?

When her parents were alive, and before Edric was born she was 2nd in line. When her unnamed brother became Lord she was his heiress before Edric was born (and she actually died before Edric was born, so she would have been her brother's heir).

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  • 3 months later...

By birth and blood, Ned was a good league above Ashara. A second son of a major house would be as good a catch as it would normally get for Ashara (landing an heir would be like winning the lottery). However, the two house in question are on opposite sides of the kingdom, such a much would not be politically relevent for either.

Lady Ashara landing an heir to a Lord Paramount would be like winning the lottery but Lady Ashara landing an heir to a Lord is attainable and for more preferable than to wed her to a second son since her eldest son would be a lord of a more significant holding than some mere holdfast Ned Stark could hope to have from his brother. Also, I doubt Lady Ashara from the warm Dorne would have liked living in the cold North

As I mentioned before, whether the marriage would be politically profitable for House Dayne or not, is another issue. But a mésalliance it would not be.

One, I'd say that a Redwyne girl for a younger Tully is just as good a match as a Dayne girl for a younger Stark. Two, there's another match for another second son: Tywin tried to marry off Cersei to Oberyn Martell. That's a daughter of Casterly Rock, socially and politically a few rungs above Ashara Dayne (whether she's considered "Robert's sloppy seconds" or "king's mother" is a glass half full/glass half empty kind of deal).

BTW, browsing family trees fishing for arguments, I found for example one Janna Tyrell, Lord Paramount's daughter, married to a mere Ser Jon Fossoway. Not even a lord (and the "green" Fossoways are a brand new house to boot). And nobody seems to consider that improper.

A Redwyne girl for a younger Tully is just as good a match as a Dayne girl for a younger Stark. Agreed. Both matches would have been bad for the girls. Bethany Redwyne's eldest son by Brynden Tully would be a landless knight at worse and a knight with a holdfast at best whereas Bethany Redwyne's eldest son by Lord Mathis Rowan would be the next Lord of Goldengrove.

Lord Tywin is more preoccupied in ensuring that his grandson the King remains on the Iron Throne than in ensuring that the King's half brother would have a sufficient inheritance from his father. Lord Tywin would have married Queen Cersei off to Lord Balon if it would keep his grandson on the Iron Throne.

Ned was way too good for Ashara, who wasn't even a heiress. Ned was second in line after Brandon, so he was an awesome catch; Brandon could have choked with a slice of pie, have had a bad fall from his horse, have had a tourney accident or have caught a nasty flu...and BAM! Ned is heir to Winterfell!.

Ashara's family would have been delighted to marry her to Ned, but it has been said that Ashara's wasn't Ned's beloved, but Brandon's lover, and Brandon was already betrothed to Cat.

The Daynes are not going to marry their daughter off to a second son with the expectation that the first son dies. Ashara Dayne was more than Ned Stark could have hoped for. Ned Stark could expect the daughter of one of his father's bannermen who had never left the North, not a Dornish beauty with court connections.

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It's pretty obvious that Ned would have gotten lands and a title from somewhere. The Starks have a long tradition of giving lordships to second sons. The Grey starks and Karstarks are both examples and if there is one thing the North has in spades its land. I always imagined that Ned would get lands or a position in the vale from Jon if he didn't get any from his father. Jon didn't have any sons at all let alone a second son. I'm sure he could have found a plot of land for his foster son. Or there is always the possibility of Ned! knight of the bloody gate.


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First of all, from what Barristan said it sounds like Ashara's suicide was pretty close to the birth of her child. Harrenhal was about two years before that so even being dishonored at Harrenhal, she didn't get pregnant there.



Second, in medieval terms you didn't have to go all the way to dishonor a girl. There are other liberties that can be taken short of that. All it takes is someone seeing her allowing a guy to do things she shouldn't be letting him do. Her chances for any decent match go down if her behavior (she would be blamed for being loose enough to allow whatever happened, even if she tried to stop the guy, it's unfair but that's the way it was) is well-known.



Third, when you're talking major houses in the kingdom the crown's permission has to be gained for the matches. Aerys clearly allowed the Brandon and Catelyn match, but if he thought Lord Stark was plotting something there's little chance he would have approved Ned marrying the daughter of the second house of Dorne. He'd already allowed Stark/Tully, and Stark/Barathen (which put Lyanna's kids in line for the throne potentially), no chance he'd allow a third power marriage.



Fourth, does anyone else wonder why the heck Ned got to the age of 20 with no betrothal on the table? Brandon and Lyanna had future mates. Why didn't Rickard have someone lined up for Ned? Was Ned completely overlooked because Rickard was focusing on his heir and his only daughter? Even a bannerman's daughter should have been lined up in advance. Something is not right here.


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