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Was Ned Really That Bad of a Catch for Ashara Dayne


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Second, in medieval terms you didn't have to go all the way to dishonor a girl. There are other liberties that can be taken short of that. All it takes is someone seeing her allowing a guy to do things she shouldn't be letting him do. Her chances for any decent match go down if her behavior (she would be blamed for being loose enough to allow whatever happened, even if she tried to stop the guy, it's unfair but that's the way it was) is well-known.

I dunno. The loss of virginity (or getting caught having sex before marriage) is a quite important red line for the Westerosi. I think that a Westerosi who heard that a girl had been dishonored by a man would think of sex (and yes, I mean "all the way").

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Unlike most of the posters I like the idea A+E=J . Politically speaking Rickard Stark would have had Eddard wed the kinswoman to one of the lords of the Great Houses . Ashera Dayne has nothing to offer him but her womb and name recognition or maybe a dowry since she is not the eldest Dayne . Eddard Stark has little to offer he has some wealth and a good head on his shoulders but no keep he would have to become the banner man to a lesser house. There are those who believe Brandon and Ashera was lovers because Eddard wasn't handsome as Brandon without any proof .But, this is what we know out of all of the knights that was there only Eddard wanted to dance with her, Barristan lament was she didn't know how felt about her.( A closed mouth doesn't get fed.)Now for a little tryst they are perfect.


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First of all, from what Barristan said it sounds like Ashara's suicide was pretty close to the birth of her child. Harrenhal was about two years before that so even being dishonored at Harrenhal, she didn't get pregnant there.

What Barristan said is extremely vague. He said (thinks), IIRC, "shortly after", but this is a 60+ year old man thinking about events he wasn't privy to that are twenty years or more past. In that context, "shortly after" could easily be a year, even two.

For example, it would be fair to say that the Korean war (1950-53) was "shortly after" the conclusion of WWII if you are looking at the twentieth century. Five years difference out of a hundred.

If Ashara did get pregnant at Harrenhal, then her child would have been born around 12-18 months before her supposed suicide. On a twenty year scale, that fits "shortly after" even if you don't throw Barristan's dubious knowledge of events and timeline accuracy into the picture.

Second, in medieval terms you didn't have to go all the way to dishonor a girl. There are other liberties that can be taken short of that. All it takes is someone seeing her allowing a guy to do things she shouldn't be letting him do. Her chances for any decent match go down if her behavior (she would be blamed for being loose enough to allow whatever happened, even if she tried to stop the guy, it's unfair but that's the way it was) is well-known.

While thats a possibility, its equally posssible, perhaps even probable given what else goes around in Westeros and the reputation the Dornish hold anyway (fair or unfair), that 'dishonour' does in fact mean a pregnancy.

Third, when you're talking major houses in the kingdom the crown's permission has to be gained for the matches. Aerys clearly allowed the Brandon and Catelyn match, but if he thought Lord Stark was plotting something there's little chance he would have approved Ned marrying the daughter of the second house of Dorne. He'd already allowed Stark/Tully, and Stark/Barathen (which put Lyanna's kids in line for the throne potentially), no chance he'd allow a third power marriage.

There is zero indication that the crown's permission is needed outside House Targaryen and plenty that it is not.

Fourth, does anyone else wonder why the heck Ned got to the age of 20 with no betrothal on the table? Brandon and Lyanna had future mates. Why didn't Rickard have someone lined up for Ned? Was Ned completely overlooked because Rickard was focusing on his heir and his only daughter? Even a bannerman's daughter should have been lined up in advance. Something is not right here.

No wonder from me. If you marry everyone off too quick, you dont have anyone left for emergency opportunities. Men, especially second-plus sons, have a fairly decent shelf-life, unlike women (unfair, but true).

Further, outside 'interesting times' and specific alliance attempts/empire building, it doesn't seem to be necessary, nor normal, to marry everyone off so young, especially the boys. There are plenty of unmarried men in their mid-late twenties or older in Westeros, and no actual presure point or necessity to marry Ned off in a hurry either.

Are the Daynes even considered a major house in Dorne?

They are at best (and I dont even think it would be the case) the third most powerful house in Dorne behind the Martells and Yronwoods. And they dont appear to be anywhere near the power of the Yronwoods.

They have had a larger part to play in the story than what their actual standing is in Westeros I think

The Daynes are a rather special House though. Their lineage and history are far older and more noble than almost any other House in Westeros (even the Starks) and they have a unique and special heritage and position by way of the sword Dawn and the title Sword of the Morning.

In addition their political star is very high as of Harrenhal, with one son in the KG and best friend and closest companion of the Crown Prince, and one daughter Handmaid to the Crown Princess.

Their status goes far beyond their actual power or wealth.

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The Daynes are a rather special House though. Their lineage and history are far older and more noble than almost any other House in Westeros (even the Starks) and they have a unique and special heritage and position by way of the sword Dawn and the title Sword of the Morning.

In addition their political star is very high as of Harrenhal, with one son in the KG and best friend and closest companion of the Crown Prince, and one daughter Handmaid to the Crown Princess.

Their status goes far beyond their actual power or wealth.

Starks are older then any House bar the Dayne and built the damn Wall, and are a Great House. Their status is nevertheless mostly equivalent to their perceived wealth and power.

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Starks are older then any House bar the Dayne and built the damn Wall, and are a Great House. Their status is nevertheless mostly equivalent to their perceived wealth and power.

which is why with their power and wealth destroyed, they are still accorded status by most of the North...

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which is why with their power and wealth destroyed, they are still accorded status by most of the North...

Because they went out to earn it. Ned and Robb lead these people to war. Ned ruled these people for a decade and half. And in both cases the previous Lord-Protector of the North was taken/killed at KL. The North doesn't care about the Starks because they are so very old or because of any sword that they have. They personally know them to be a damn sight preferable to Roose Bolton and the Freys, who still have Greatjon, Manderly's son and a bunch of other highborns as prisoner.

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I dunno. The loss of virginity (or getting caught having sex before marriage) is a quite important red line for the Westerosi. I think that a Westerosi who heard that a girl had been dishonored by a man would think of sex (and yes, I mean "all the way").

Sex would definitely be the red line, but there are shades of dishonoring up to that line. Yes people probably would jump to that conclusion but it's not necessarily a given. Just trying to think of all the possibilities here.

What Barristan said is extremely vague. He said (thinks), IIRC, "shortly after", but this is a 60+ year old man thinking about events he wasn't privy to that are twenty years or more past. In that context, "shortly after" could easily be a year, even two.

For example, it would be fair to say that the Korean war (1950-53) was "shortly after" the conclusion of WWII if you are looking at the twentieth century. Five years difference out of a hundred.

If Ashara did get pregnant at Harrenhal, then her child would have been born around 12-18 months before her supposed suicide. On a twenty year scale, that fits "shortly after" even if you don't throw Barristan's dubious knowledge of events and timeline accuracy into the picture.

There is zero indication that the crown's permission is needed outside House Targaryen and plenty that it is not.

No wonder from me. If you marry everyone off too quick, you dont have anyone left for emergency opportunities. Men, especially second-plus sons, have a fairly decent shelf-life, unlike women (unfair, but true).

Further, outside 'interesting times' and specific alliance attempts/empire building, it doesn't seem to be necessary, nor normal, to marry everyone off so young, especially the boys. There are plenty of unmarried men in their mid-late twenties or older in Westeros, and no actual presure point or necessity to marry Ned off in a hurry either.

I don't think of Barristan as so out of it that he thinks of something a year or two later as "shortly after." He seems pretty sharp. Granted we don't know yet how accurate his memory is.

The crown's permission is a real-world thing. May not apply in Westeros, but since we don't know for sure, we might as well consider it as a factor. We'll have to hope that the Ned/Ashara thing gets covered in either TWoW or ADoS.

Fair point about Ned possibly being essentially an insurance policy for a rainy day.

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I think Ned would have been better off with ashara he shouldn't have honored his brothers marriage commitments.the tully don't impress me .hoster should have dealt with Frey an I might respect him

No. No, no, no. House Tully gives him the Riverlands, House Dayne gives him squat. Also, Cat was pretty damn good looking herself, and as we all know that marriage turned out quite well. He would've been an absolute fool to turn down Hoster at that point.

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I don't think of Barristan as so out of it that he thinks of something a year or two later as "shortly after." He seems pretty sharp. Granted we don't know yet how accurate his memory is.

Its got nothing to do with 'out of it'. Its simply a factor of scale and distance.

Its also not a memory. Any child Ashara had would have been well away from Barristan's presence so its almost certainly him recollecting from his "knowledge" being what he was told by someone else. Which is itself another reason to expand out the potential time frame here, as events that are not personal experience are much more likely to be generalised within one's personal timeline.

For example, someone who fought in both WWII and Korea would be a lot less likely to call Korea "shortly after" WWII than someone who didn't fight in them.

The crown's permission is a real-world thing. May not apply in Westeros, but since we don't know for sure, we might as well consider it as a factor.

No we should not, since we have plentful evidence that it isn't necessary (marriages being arranged or suggested between many great houses, including Martell/Lannister, Lannister/Tully, Stark/Tully, Stark/Baratheon) and no evidence that any of those had or required the blessing of the crown. And all of those are long before any hint of rebellion. The only marriages that the Crown seems to have had any power over are Targaryen ones.

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Ashara was in love with Ned?

A bunch of characters who didn't know them and weren't around them think so (Cersei, Winterfell servants gossip to Catelyn, Edric Dayne).

But then, thats a logical conclusion from Ned taking his bastard away from Starfall and Ashara committing suicide. Its just wrong.

There is no actual solid evidence that either Ned or Ashara loved the other.

Edric Dayne says they did, but he wasn't born at the time, and his source, Ashara's sister Allyria was very likely not born or not old enough to understand things at the time either (since she has beeen betrothed for 6 or more years to mid-twenties Beric Dondarrion, but not yet married, indicating she's probably a young woman almost certainly not in her late twenties or older which she would have to be to understand what went down around Harrenhal/Roberts Rebellion. Further, Edric Dayne claims that Wylla is Jon's mother, but Ned and Ashara were in love. Thats a basic inconsistency in his story right there, especially given what we know of Ned's character. The most likely truth here is that too-young Allryia made up, or had made up for her, a romantic story that puts her aunt as the tragic heroine rather than a suicide that puts her House and family in a rather poor light.

Obviously the servants at Winterfell, and Catelyn had no knowledge at all of what happened around Ned in the far south. But they can put two and two together with Jon's appearance at Starfall out of nowhere and Ashara's suicide, and possibly stories about the Dayne girl and a disgrace at Harrenhal, maybe involving Starks.

The exact same goes for Cersei.

Meera's story doesn't actually show anything except a popular girl having one dance with a shy boy, after being asked to by the boy's older brother. rthere's not actually any hint of romance on either party's part there if you look at it closely.

Barristan's recollections and thoughts indicate that in his experience (which we know includes at least Dany and Ashara) young girls always go for 'fire' men when they would be much better off with 'mud' men. the clear inference is that Ashara was dishonoured by a fire man. Ned is the quintessential mud man. Brandon, who we know had no compunction over sleeping with unmarried noblewomen, was the wild wolf, liked a bloody sword, was taller, stronger, better looking and a better swordsman than Ned, was a much better catch for any young woman, and actually talked to Ashara, was, on the other hand, a quintessential fire man.

All indications we have - character/history (Ned), character/history (Brandon), prospects (heir vs second son), attractiveness, fun, firey-ness, Ned actually having someone else in his tent (Howland Reed), anything you can think of, actually point towards a Brandon + Ashara affair, leading to a pregnancy and disgrace for Ashara, over than anything between Ned and Ashara.

But characters mostly don't know all that. What they know is that Ned had a bastard, and that bastard came away from Starfall at the same time as the young woman there, previously disgraced from court with a pregnancy, committed suicide. The obvious conclusion is that Ashara and Ned were lovers and Jon their child and she killed herself when Ned stayed true to his political marriage to Catelyn and took Jon away from her to boot.

However, that doesn't fit at all with all the extra stuff that we know.

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