The Monomyth of Jon Snow

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There are a some people that say that Jon (or Aegon or someone else) is Azor Ahai, but I think that they're forgetting what Maester Aemon said to Sam, he said Melisandre was wrong, Dany was Azor Ahai, the Prince (Princess) that was promised, everybody missunderstood the prophecy because dragons are not male or female, they're both. So, he was wrong or it was just another theory?

It's important to remember a few things regarding Aemon's conclusion.

1. The biggest one is that, in cases like this, you should be highly skeptical that any prophecy that is "solved" outright has been correctly solved. That is to say, would GRRM really spit out the solution for this sort of thing in that manner? I doubt it. I think Dany is a giant red herring.

2. It's not that the PtwP/AA is a female, but that it could be. Because the word dragon is genderless and prince and dragon are the same word in Valyrian, it is possible that the solution is female. But that is not the same as the solution actually being female.

3. Aemon thinks that only someone of Rhaella and Aerys's line can fulfill the prophecy. As far as he knows, Dany is the only surviving suspect, so by a process of elimination, it must be her. But he doesn't know that Jon and possibly Aegon (though I think Aegon's fake) would also fit, so he's making his conclusion based at least somewhat on missing information.

4. Just about any time a dragon is referenced in prophecy, at least in the D&E series, the dragon is symbolic and references a member of House Targaryen, a person. Not a literal dragon. In other words, it's possible, even likely, that the dragons referenced in the prophecy are symbolic and figurative, not literal.

[Daughter of the North]

Welcome to the forum.

In the passage you are quoting, Aemon spoke about an error in the translation, misdirecting everyone to look for a prince rather than a princess. To make his point though he speaks about the gender of dragons, being interchangeable, thereby equating the word for dragon in valyrian with the word for prince and making both gender-neutral. Combining the pieces that we have the prophesy becomes the prince (dragon) that was promised has three heads. Or, that there are three Azor Ahais. One of them is Dany, another is Jon.

Thank you for the welcome.

Now that you said it so, I'm starting to think about the three-headed dragon as three Azor Ahais, which is really helpful.

In any case, the current OP does not refer to Jon being AA, but rather his arc having the literary characteristics of a heroes arc, which may or may not be relevent to him being AA, cause after we have no clue what AA is supposed to do.

I know what the post was about, and I forgot to said it was really good, but when I read that Jon could be Azor Ahai I remembered all the other "candidates" and the doubt I had about it, and I just wanted to have it clear. So, thank you for help me with this.

[Daughter of the North]

I think Dany is a giant red herring.

Poor Dany...

But yeah, it's a possibility because it's a theory and with Martin we think a lot, but we know nothing.

By the way, great post.

[Petite Psycophant]

Thank you for the welcome.

Now that you said it so, I'm starting to think about the three-headed dragon as three Azor Ahais, which is really helpful.

I know what the post was about, and I forgot to said it was really good, but when I read that Jon could be Azor Ahai I remembered all the other "candidates" and the doubt I had about it, and I just wanted to have it clear. So, thank you for help me with this.

Actually, I think sleeper is confusing "the dragon has 3 heads" with the AA prophecy. The three heads are the three riders but there's only one prince(ss) that was promised. Just like Aegon the Conqueror came with two sisters but he was the most important head of the three. Though if you take the dragon to be a symbol and the 3 heads as 3 different people then the prophecy dictates that these people must have the Blood of the Dragon. They don't have to be Targaryens but definitely have enough of the blood of Valyria in them.

Not everybody accepts that AA = tPtwP either although Aemon did think they were one and the same. The reason Aemon concluded that Dany's the one mentioned in the prophecy because she was the one who brought the dragons back. Not Jon, not Bran, not Aegon, not Tyrion... Dany did. Actually I'd like to see the monomyth applied to Dany, it seems to fit her better. As for the prophecy being too straightforward, well... plenty of people still aren't convinced it's Dany so apparently it's not as straightforward as some would have you believe it to be. Not to mention that there are plenty of pieces of the puzzle missing.

Not to mention Dany saw the RW prophesied in THotU. That was pretty straightforward. Either way this post was very insightful and I too learned something new.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Actually I'd like to see the monomyth applied to Dany, it seems to fit her better.

You're free to do this at any time. I obviously disagree about who the monomyth fits better, but if you can apply it to Dany, go for it.

As for the prophecy being too straightforward, well... plenty of people still aren't convinced it's Dany so apparently it's not as straightforward as some would have you believe it to be.

I didn't want this to turn into a Dany discussion; if I gave a shit about how the monomyth model fit Dany, or thought she was the one to whom it most applied, I'd've written about it from that angle. But this is kind of a disingenuous point. It's because it's so straightforwardly pointing to Dany that so many people are skeptical. That's the entire driving force between the red herring argument.

Now I would sincerely appreciate it if the discussion went back to the topic, which is not Dany.

[Petite Psycophant]

You're free to do this at any time. I obviously disagree about who the monomyth fits better, but if you can apply it to Dany, go for it.

I didn't want this to turn into a Dany discussion; if I gave a shit about how the monomyth model fit Dany, or thought she was the one to whom it most applied, I'd've written about it from that angle. But this is kind of a disingenuous point. It's because it's so straightforwardly pointing to Dany that so many people are skeptical. That's the entire driving force between the red herring argument.

Now I would sincerely appreciate it if the discussion went back to the topic, which is not Dany.

Well people brought her up so I gave my 2 cents. As for Jon, it's the same theories I've seen everywhere else except this time compared to the monomyth. The problem is that we haven't gotten any new information so the speculations stay the same. Maybe he'll see Lyanna/Ned/Rhaegar. Maybe Melisandre will help him, maybe Melisandre will be the antagonist. Maybe he'll die and lose part of himself when resurrected, maybe he'll warg Ghost, maybe Bran/Bloodraven will contact him.

The monomyth fits Jon somewhat but we don't know what'll happen to him. It is interesting to see the parallels though. I don't think it sheds any more of a light where Jon may be going, as a character, though since many of the things you brought up were already speculated upon without drawing this parallel.

[Teal'c]

^{Not every hero will have every one of these steps, and they may be in a different order:}

^{1.The hero may be born of common or bastard birth, and may grow up away from their family of origin. Their true parentage may be royal or divine.}

^{Examples: Jon Snow, Danaerys, Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins, Oedipus, Hercules, Theseus, Arthur pen Dragon, Moses, Beowulf, Will Turner, Ulysses Everett McGill, Danny Archer, Jesus, and so on.}

^{2.There is frequently prophecy relating to the hero.}

^{For Jon and Dany, these have been discussed on this forum many times. There is a prophecy that Harry Potter will destroy Voldemort. There is a prophecy that Oedipus will kill his father, so he is sent away at birth to be killed. There is a prophecy that the true King of Britain will pull the sword from the stone, and so on and so on.}

^{3.The hero receives a call to adventure, which the hero (or by proxy his guardian) may refuse once or several times.}

^{Jon has asked Ned to go to the Wall in the past. He only agrees to let him go when Catelyn saysJon can't stay at Winterfell. Jon rides away from the Wall but is fetched back by his friends. This is another refusal of the call. Dany continues to refuse to depart from Essos. Harry Potter's uncle tries to stop his Hogwarts letters from reaching Harry, thus refusing the call to his wizarding education.}

^{4. Heroes frequently have magical familiars or creatures associated with them. For ASOIAF, enough said, we know them. Harry Potter has Hedwig and Dobby. Luke has R2D2 and C3PO.}

^{5. Heroes have mentors or guides which help them on their way, frequently giving them knowledge or actual talismans to aid them in their quest.}

^{Benjen and Tyrion accompany Jon to the Wall. Tyrion teaches Jon to wear his bastardy as his armor so people can't use it against him. This is a message to embrace his identity, an encouragement not to refuse the call to adventure. Jeor Mormont gives him Longclaw; Illyrio gives Dany dragon eggs. These are magical talismans which will aid them on their journey. Jorah and then Selmy guide and protect Dany on her journey and council about war and ruling. Tyrion is on his way to Dany to guide her about dragon lore.}

^{An interesting note here is that Tyrion has also served as one of Jon's mentor/guides, and written his dragon knowledge on scrolls for YG/Aegon, in addition to redirecting his journey to Westeros instead of Meereen. To me, this situation, in which all three share a common mentor/guide, is one factor which tells me Aegon VI may be the real deal or be widely perceived as the real deal, and George is going for a triumvirate of epic heroes. I think these will be the three dragon riders. But that's just one of my little crackpot theories.}

^{6. Heroes gain skills and knowledge which will aid them later in the most difficult part of their quest. Jon spends time learning about the wildlings and they give him information about the world beyond the wall. He also picks up new mentor/guides, those being Mance, Tormund, and Melisandre. Dany has learned to respect other cultures and to assimilate herself as a way of earning respect and loyalty of her subjects and lieutenants. She has learned to dispense justice and sack cities. She has learned that the only power is to be perceived as the strongest. She has learned to hatch and ride dragons. This is the farthest point Dany has reached in the epic hero's path, as far as I can see.}

^{From this point onward, the hero is alone on his journey.}

^{7. Once the hero has gained knowledge and skills, he is ready to move on to the most difficult and dangerous part of the quest, in which he enters the Belly of the Whale. For Jon, I believe the Shield Hall was the Belly of the Whale. Literally, it is a large dark cavernous room with rows of wooden rafters and rows of wooden benches, which seemed like enormous ribs to me. Figuratively, the speech he gives in the Shield Hall is the turning point for Marsh and his conspirators.}

^{8. The hero suffers a death or near death or a metaphorical death. I believe this is what we saw at the end of Jon's last chapter.}

^{9. The next step is a journey in the underworld, usually figurative, where the hero is given or finds or steals a magical object or gains magical knowledge. This is referred to as the boon.}

^{10. Reincarnation or rebirth, also sometimes called apotheosis or becoming the god.}

^{11. The return journey, which the hero may also refuse several times.}

^{12. The hero returns, bearing the boon, which he uses to redeem or rescue society. At this point his previous companions and some mentors may return to stand with him against the great evil.}

^{13. Meeting with the goddess, where the hero is made complete by joining with her. A female hero is rare, but if so she IS the goddess.}

^{14. The hero becomes the master of two worlds. This may be the normal and the divine, or some other permutation. In ASOIAF it could be the North and the South, Westeros and Essos, whatever George makes of it.}

With apologies to Apple that this earlier post of mine discussed Dany as well as Jon:

In addition to the attributes listed in Apple's excellent (as always!) post, the hero often has a secret identity and is raised outside his family of origin. As well as having mentors and guides, the hero is associated with magical familiars (creatures) and talismans, such as a special sword or weapon. There is frequently prophecy associated with the hero, which is why my money is on Jon for being AAR,

[lostcause]

3. Supernatural Help

The hero receives a guide, someone from a different plane of existence and/or someone with supernatural abilities. In the earliest iteration, and I would argue well beyond that to the present time, this figure for Jon seems to be Bloodraven. Bloodraven is strongly implied to be behind the Stark direwolves' discovery. Mormont's raven "tells" Jon how to destroy the wights, and the raven helps swing the election Jon's way. And many people believe that whatever is in Jon's future, Bloodraven will play some role in it.

As always you write some damn interesting stuff.

I wish I could add to the debate, but my ASOIAF knowledge is no where near what some of you guys have, I enjoy the read though!

One thing that puzzled me a little though in your original post Apple; where do we get the hint that Bloodraven is behind the discovery of the Direwolves? Completely went over my head.

[bemused]

Not attempting to answer for Apple , but for me, the BR connection comes with hindsight - the symbolic warning in the whole scene ( the meeting of Stark and Baratheon, and it's consequences ) when we know BR influences dreams using symbolism.... the unlikelihood of a direwolf making it's way south of the wall after 200 yrs. and expiring just where the Starks would find it .. the mystery of Ghost - of course ,if the pups were kept , the Stark children would come before Jon ( as Jon himself suggests ) - convenient that Ghost had managed to crawl away to where he would be the last to be discovered ..the fact that Jon "heard " him, though he's since been mute... even Ghost's colouring..etc.

I too, see Jon's refusal of Stannis' offer of WF as point 8 , and I feel his dealings with Mel are related to this..

I'm strongly feeling that Val, in the next book, may become his meeting with the goddess moment.. which of course we haven't seen yet.. but I feel ,based on oblique hints in the text, that she will be revealed to be very important going forward , not only as a love interest , but as a guide to Jon going forward. I think she has already committed to him unconditionally.. and love may go with that.

ETA: :D if she is a seer in the tradition of worship of the Old Gods , she could also double as another magical aide.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

One thing that puzzled me a little though in your original post Apple; where do we get the hint that Bloodraven is behind the discovery of the Direwolves? Completely went over my head.

I think it's just the whole idea that they were "meant" to have them, that the wolves weren't "discovered" so much as they were sent, and if some higher power really is pulling the strings, then it's either Bloodraven or linked to Bloodraven.

[lostcause]

I see.

So I'm guessing that the hero doesn't have to do all this in numerical order - but is there allowance for "skipping" any of them?

[Teal'c]

I think it's just the whole idea that they were "meant" to have them, that the wolves weren't "discovered" so much as they were sent, and if some higher power really is pulling the strings, then it's either Bloodraven or linked to Bloodraven.

Right, I agree: the magical familiars, having been sent by one of the guides. No one has seen a direwolf south of the Wall in many years. Then, out of the blue, a heavily pregnant female journeys hundreds of miles, alone, to just happen to die and leave her pups in need of fostering. All of this was unlikely to occur by chance alone.

So far we have seen Bloodraven acting as a guide and as a mentor for Bran; I won't be surprised to see Bloodraven acting as a guide for Jon on his return journey.

[Teal'c]

I see.

So I'm guessing that the hero doesn't have to do all this in numerical order - but is there allowance for "skipping" any of them?

When considering the epic hero story as a genre, these parameters consistently appear. For any one particular hero, some parameters may be omitted, or they may occur out of order.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I see.

So I'm guessing that the hero doesn't have to do all this in numerical order - but is there allowance for "skipping" any of them?

Some models like Cousineau's don't have the same number of "steps" as Campbell's, and others have different "steps." Campbell's isn't the only model; it's just the most specific and the best known. So for instance, a story following Cousineau's trimmed-down path, which has only eight steps, would be "skipping" steps in Campbell's model. So I think it's best to look at the arc as a whole instead of getting too finicky over the individual parts of it. It's meant to be read broadly and different stories will mix things up, leave some things out and/or approach the steps in different ways.

So far we have seen Bloodraven acting as a guide and as a mentor for Bran; I won't be surprised to see Bloodraven acting as a guide for Jon on his return journey.

Part of me wonders if Bran for Bloodraven is like Stannis for Melisandre. Both Stannis and Bran are identified as their mentors' "endgame," with Melisandre herself pegging Stannis as Azor Ahai and Jojen pegging Bran as the winged wolf. But I wonder if Bran and Stannis are both steps to the endgame, and not the endgame themselves. For instance, it's possible that Melisandre saw Stannis because he would be the one to lead her to Jon. In Bloodraven's case, perhaps something about Bran will help him facilitate communication with Jon.

[SeanF]

Apple, many thanks for an excellent O/P.

Jaime dreams of meeting his mother under Casterly Rock, and Rhaegar in hell. Do you think he really was communicating with their spirits?

[Teal'c]

Part of me wonders if Bran for Bloodraven is like Stannis for Melisandre. Both Stannis and Bran are identified as their mentors' "endgame," with Melisandre herself pegging Stannis as Azor Ahai and Jojen pegging Bran as the winged wolf. But I wonder if Bran and Stannis are both steps to the endgame, and not the endgame themselves. For instance, it's possible that Melisandre saw Stannis because he would be the one to lead her to Jon. In Bloodraven's case, perhaps something about Bran will help him facilitate communication with Jon.

Good point. Once again George's subtle use of parallel structure...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple, many thanks for an excellent O/P.

Jaime dreams of meeting his mother under Casterly Rock, and Rhaegar in hell. Do you think he really was communicating with their spirits?

That's hard to say. It could be a spirit, or an imprint, something left behind. If Lyanna and Rhaegar were married in front of a weirwood, for instance, that could be something transmitted to Jon during his catabasis. There's all sorts of possibilities. I just think it'd be fitting if the goddess/father dichotomy involved Jon's real parents, in whatever form they might take.

[John Hulboy]

I really enjoy ur topics great job got a lot of respect for you

[John Hulboy]

what is blood ravens endgame? why doesn't he use his powers to deal with the boltons bowen marshes the enemies of bran or jon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

what is blood ravens endgame? why doesn't he use his powers to deal with the boltons bowen marshes the enemies of bran or jon.

I think Bloodraven is looking at the long game, as in, the conflict between Ice and Fire, and/or humans and Others, and/or creation and destruction, whatever. I think he's beyond political stuff at the moment, so I'm not sure the Boltons would be of any interest (unless of course there's more to them than we've been told, which is possible), and I think he'd only be interested in Marsh insofar as Marsh would affect Jon.