Aegon at ToJ

[finger]

At your own request, the flaws...

But you agree with something...And I have my witnesses.

According to BS, even Rhaegar had seen that Aerys was nuts in the end.

Those at ToJ were well informed, so they had to be in touch with someone out there.

BS was somewhat jealous of Rhaegar's friendship. I'll check how close a friend he was.

Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books (btw, please tell me where it's written than Jon Snow was born at the Tower of Joy) Another assumption, as I don't think we have enough information to assess his actions

I think it's the same idea with different wording. We don't have enough information, then something is missing.

JC had been a general, In his thoughts, he's praising the GC's command, and he recalls Arthur Dayne. I'd say this means something.

When Rhaegar left ToJ, Jon wasn't born. I don't think it enough for three KG.

Over all, I don't find edible that the LC of the KG is sent to deliver a message.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

These weird ToJ threads pop up a lot don't they?

The main job of the KG is to guard the king. Three KG were guarding Jon because he's the king in Targaryen succession. If Aegon were alive he'd be guarded by at least one KG. If Viserys was the king he would have been guarded by at least on KG.

All other things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the best.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

These weird ToJ threads pop up a lot don't they?

The main job of the KG is to guard the king. Three KG were guarding Jon because he's the king in Targaryen succession. If Aegon were alive he'd be guarded by at least one KG. If Viserys was the king he would have been guarded by at least on KG.

All other things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the best.

Agreed. That's what makes the "Aegon got away" argument so easy to dismiss.

[finger]

You invited people to find the flaws in your arguments and people have done so.

While you are welcome to your opinion, when it is illogical, based on assumptions or lacks supporting textual proofs you should not be surprised when others point out these flaws.

You can find ilogical anything, and argue about it.

I just don't use words as absurd or ridiculous when referring to what other people write, even though I do have an opinion.

Can you imagine anything more ludicrous than Hightower riding about in a postman cap. No one has answered to this.

Maybe this one: "Daddy's calling, hurry up!"

[J. Stargaryen]

But you agree with something...And I have my witnesses.

According to BS, even Rhaegar had seen that Aerys was nuts in the end.

Those at ToJ were well informed, so they had to be in touch with someone out there.

BS was somewhat jealous of Rhaegar's friendship. I'll check how close a friend he was.

I think it's the same idea with different wording. We don't have enough information, then something is missing.Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books (btw, please tell me where it's written than Jon Snow was born at the Tower of Joy) Another assumption, as I don't think we have enough information to assess his actions

JC had been a general, In his thoughts, he's praising the GC's command, and he recalls Arthur Dayne. I'd say this means something.

When Rhaegar left ToJ, Jon wasn't born. I don't think it enough for three KG.

Over all, I don't find edible that the LC of the KG is sent to deliver a message.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

- AGoT, Eddard X

This, I believe, was already quoted for you in this thread.

I recall we used to have the Apple Martini test question. Well, maybe this can by the J. Stargaryen litmus test. :) If you don't understand what "bed of blood/bloody bed" means, then I don't trust your ability to interpret anything in the text accurately.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I recall we used to have the Apple Martini test question.

Oooh remind me what that was? You're right, we had it, but I can't remember the exact wording. :D

[J. Stargaryen]

Oooh remind me what that was? You're right, we had it, but I can't remember the exact wording. :D

Something like: why was keeping the identity of Jon's mother a secret so damn important, if it wasn't Lyanna?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Something like: why was keeping the identity of Jon's mother a secret so damn important, if it wasn't Lyanna?

YES THAT'S IT.

But yeah that is the question all R+L=/=J people need to answer.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

But you agree with something...And I have my witnesses.

According to BS, even Rhaegar had seen that Aerys was nuts in the end.

Those at ToJ were well informed, so they had to be in touch with someone out there.

BS was somewhat jealous of Rhaegar's friendship. I'll check how close a friend he was.

Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books (btw, please tell me where it's written than Jon Snow was born at the Tower of Joy) Another assumption, as I don't think we have enough information to assess his actions

I think it's the same idea with different wording. We don't have enough information, then something is missing.

JC had been a general, In his thoughts, he's praising the GC's command, and he recalls Arthur Dayne. I'd say this means something.

When Rhaegar left ToJ, Jon wasn't born. I don't think it enough for three KG.

Over all, I don't find edible that the LC of the KG is sent to deliver a message.

Lol, yes we agree about the one thing you propose that actually was a direct textual reference. It's a start :cheers:

As for the rest, we are left with your feelings and intuition which imo do not suffice. As far as Jon's birthplace as you are well aware there is a solid mass of textual hints and clues leading to the conclusion that it was the ToJ. For your theory, we have only the shaky construct of your well deserved opinion. Sadly, the two are not equal.

These weird ToJ threads pop up a lot don't they?

The main job of the KG is to guard the king. Three KG were guarding Jon because he's the king in Targaryen succession. If Aegon were alive he'd be guarded by at least one KG. If Viserys was the king he would have been guarded by at least on KG.

All other things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the best.

All threads questioning RLJ must devolve into a ToJ discussion, your application of logic notwithstanding :p

Can you imagine anything more ludicrous than Hightower riding about in a postman cap. No one has answered to this.

Maybe this one: "Daddy's calling, hurry up!"

Here's one-- LC Hightower surreptitiously delivering Rhaegar's son to the care of his pregnant second wife at an abandoned watchtower in Dorne.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

J. Stargaryen, on 22 Dec 2013 - 2:59 PM, said:

- AGoT, Eddard X

This, I believe, was already quoted for you in this thread.

I recall we used to have the Apple Martini test question. Well, maybe this can by the J. Stargaryen litmus test. :) If you don't understand what "bed of blood/bloody bed" means, then I don't trust your ability to interpret anything in the text accurately.

Maybe Lyanna had ebola. Did you ever think of that? Wake up sheeple!

Just in case anyone's sarcasm detector is on the fritz, I'm just kidding.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This idea that Rhaegar must have negotiated some price for his return to KL is absurd in the extreme. The only reason this "must have" taken place is for the benefit of the OP's theory. It has no value story wise. The Targaryen dynasty was in danger; that was all the motivation Rhaegar needed.

I agree with this. Rhaegar didn't need any other motivation. The dynasty was in danger. The number of capable leaders amongst the Targaryen loyalists was getting slimmer and slimmer after JonCon's exile. Rhaegar had reasons enough to return.

You're not doing a very good job. There was no in-story reason for Rhaegar to negotiate a price for his return. You can say it's logical all you want, but strangely you can't find any text to back you up.

Rhaegar already had sufficient motivation for returning to KL. The Targaryen dynasty was at stake. It was no time to haggle.

The same as above :)

Hate to play the devil's advocate but if he thought that siring PTWP was a greater call, it might have taken some persuading.

But I don't think that this was the case.

About siring the PTWP: Rhaegar believed Aegon to be the PTWP. And even if he had doubts later on (which we haven't heard anything about at all!), Lyanna was already pregnant by the time Rhaegar left the ToJ, if the pregnancy existed. So there was no reason for Rhaegar to stay at ToJ, or express desire of not wanting to leave.

But he wasn't even escorted by one Kingsguard. I'm not even saying it had to be all three. But the idea that they'd send the heir to the throne away without a single Kingsguard, when there were three to spare, stretches this beyond credulity to me. I'm not buying it, at all. Either way you cut it -- he was there when Ned came, or he had left -- there are holes you could fly Vhagar through.

I'm perfectly comfortable waiting to see who's right and wrong here, thanks.

If Aegon really had been at ToJ, and he had been smuggled away before Ned arrived, there absolutely would have been a KG knight accompanying him. The KG Knights would draw attention during travels, yes, but only dressed in their Whites. Should they dress like common men, they would draw absolutely no notice.

Loving the Vhagar comment :D

But we do not know whether he still thought it at that point, and even if he did, getting the third dragon head ASAP might have been high on his list of priorities, as well.

But that third head was already on the way. Rhaegar returned during the later stages of Lyanna's pregnancy, if she was indeed pregnant (which I believe she was).

You invited people to find the flaws in your arguments and people have done so.

While you are welcome to your opinion, when it is illogical, based on assumptions or lacks supporting textual proofs you should not be surprised when others point out these flaws.

Exactly.

But that's the point!

Should there be a conflict between orders, whom will Hightower obey? Rhaegar's command had to be coherent with Aerys'.

You have to imagine the orders of both of them.

Suppose Aerys ordered: "Go find Rhaegar and bring him here." He didn't.

Otoh, what could Hightower say to Rhaegar, so that he came back? What did Rhaegar get?

I don't understand the other question. If Aegon is alive, he's the king for the Targ supporters, no matter where he is. It's up to you to judge if it's material to the story.

This is about infering how and when Aegon was taken out of KL. I don't understand Rhaenys' doubts with the timeline, either.

So this is your OP:

First of all, I'll explain the method. I call it the Laocoonte method.

You find out some wreckage, and there are heads, pieces of limbs,... You guess it was a sculpture, and you want you know what it looked like. You might not even have all the pieces, but you still find it's worth the try.

Well, this is a story, not a sculpture, but the method holds. I try to build a story with details laid about in the series. Theses pieces must fit. The theory stands while it's not proven that:

* the pieces don't fit

* there's another piece not taken into account

* some of your own stuff is false

Eventually, GRRM will release the books but we can play the game in the meanwhile.

What we have (it can be elaborated)

Rhaegar mistrusted Aerys, he planned “something” about it

Aerys mistrusted anyone

Aerys used Elia and her children as hostages

Rhaegar's whereabuts were unkown to Jaime, and probably Aerys, but he was in touch with “someone” out there

Jon Connington was Rhaegar's best friend, together with Arthur Dayne

Hightower obeyed Aerys over any other consideration

Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books (btw, please tell me where it's written than Jon Snow was born at the Tower of Joy)

Arthur Dayne was an outstanding army leader

Robert Rebellion was a serious threat

Hightower, Dayne and Whent are left aside in the final battle.

What didn't happen

Hightower didn't escort Rhaegar back to KL, nor took care of Aerys

AD didn't help Rhaegar with the army

JC wasn't called back

Lyanna wasn't allowed to KL, or Rhaegar didn't trust to take her.

What we can easily guess

Rhaegar asked something in exchange when he came back. He'd haggle with Aerys for the price of his coming back through some intermediare.

There was something of huge value at ToJ to leave three KG, not only a pregnant second wife .

My own stuff

Rhaegar wanted Aegon out of Aerys reach. He required him to be handed out.

Aerys charged it to Hightower.

Rhaegar mistrusted Hightower's loyalty and ordered him to stay at ToJ to guard Aegon, as Aerys had ordered him. In fact, not to reveal ToJ.

He had to leave two is loyals to watch Hightower.

You're wellcome to find the flaws, that's the nature of the game. And remember, this is just a game.

So I bolded the parts that are relevant for my questions.

So you agree that Aerys wanted Rhaegar back and send out Hightower to find him. Once Hightower found Rhaegar, he did not return with Rhaegar to KL, but instead stayed at ToJ. (Hightower didn't escort Rhaegar back to KL, nor took care of Aerys)

But then you say: (1) Rhaegar asked something in exchange when he came back. He'd haggle with Aerys for the price of his coming back through some intermediare. (2) Rhaegar wanted Aegon out of Aerys reach. He required him to be handed out. (3) Aerys charged it to Hightower. (4) Rhaegar mistrusted Hightower's loyalty and ordered him to stay at ToJ to guard Aegon, as Aerys had ordered him. In fact, not to reveal ToJ. (5) He had to leave two is loyals to watch Hightower.

My problem with this is: If Hightower stays behind at ToJ after finding Rhaegar, and Rhaegar, upon his return to KL demands of Aerys that Aegon is brought into safety, how can Aerys order Hightower to take Aegon to ToJ? Hightower was already at ToJ according to you! And how can Hightower take Aegon to ToJ if he's already there himself, and Hightower doesn't return to KL in between? Kind of important details, I'd say.

You then say that Rhaegar mistrusted Hightower, so he ordered Whent and Dayne to stay at the ToJ to protect Aegon from Hightower, and so he wouldn't have to reveal that Aegon/Lyanna were at ToJ. Several problems with this: Someone had to bring Aegon to ToJ, and if this wasn't Hightower, than it was someone else, and that someone would have been told the location of ToJ. Also, there is no way only 1 person would transport the royal heir to such a remote location during war times, so it would be a group travelling to ToJ. That's a lot of people who would have known about the location of ToJ.

And Oswell and Arthur? You say Rhaegar orders them to stay at ToJ to protect Aegon from Hightower, but Arthur and Dayne were already there when Hightower arrived. In fact, they had been with Rhaegar since Rhaegar had disappeared from KL.

I also want to say something about this: you say that There was something of huge value at ToJ to leave three KG, not only a pregnant second wife .

Why would a second wife who was pregnant not be important enough to be guarded by three KG Knights? She was the reason the war was going on anyway! Without her and, more importantly, the child in her belly, Rhaegar's prophecy could not come true.

Also, you say Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books

Where does Hightower not behave like a proper LC? He is obviously acting under orders, and his conversation with Ned at ToJ shows how much he values his vows. Very much LC of KG to me.

[Ygrain]

Maybe Lyanna had ebola. Did you ever think of that? Wake up sheeple!

Just in case anyone's sarcasm detector is on the fritz, I'm just kidding.

You did have me worried for a moment.

On Hightower the delivery boy: it is, of course, entirely inconceivable. The high lords of Westeros always picky a handy nobody to deliver a message of utmost importance to a person of high standing, they never pick someone of high standing and completely reliable on top of it. Apparently. It is totally beyond me why Robb might have sent Cat to parley with Renly when he could have sent a message via some Winterfell man-at-arms.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

My problem with this is: If Hightower stays behind at ToJ after finding Rhaegar, and Rhaegar, upon his return to KL demands of Aerys that Aegon is brought into safety, how can Aerys order Hightower to take Aegon to ToJ? Hightower was already at ToJ according to you! And how can Hightower take Aegon to ToJ if he's already there himself, and Hightower doesn't return to KL in between? Kind of important details, I'd say.

<snip>

This is yet another part of the OP's theory that does not make sense.

[Ser Leftwich]

You can find ilogical anything, and argue about it.

I just don't use words as absurd or ridiculous when referring to what other people write, even though I do have an opinion.

Can you imagine anything more ludicrous than Hightower riding about in a postman cap. No one has answered to this.

Maybe this one: "Daddy's calling, hurry up!"

In AGoT, LC Barristan Selmy and Renly ride (with little postman caps on) to deliver a message to Robert and company returning from the North.

There is nothing at all wrong with what LC Hightower did.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In AGoT, LC Barristan Selmy and Renly ride (with little postman caps on) to deliver a message to Robert and company returning from the North.

There is nothing at all wrong with what LC Hightower did.

Good point. I sort of hit on this earlier, but I think it's also possible that Aerys intended for Hightower to escort Rhaegar back (as a bodyguard, not a supervisor) -- in which case it makes perfect sense to send him to get Rhaegar. But if Aerys's explicit order put emphasis on getting Rhaegar back, and he made an underlying assumption about Hightower coming back without spelling it out, then absolutely Rhaegar could have ordered Hightower to stay without conflicting with Aerys's order, which would have simply been to make sure Rhaegar got back. Which he did. I can actually see Rhaegar asking Hightower exactly what Aerys told him to do. A loophole/technicality, sure. But it works and pretty easily explains how Hightower avoided a conflict: There was no conflict.

Honestly, having a beef with Hightower being the one to send Rhaegar back is pretty weak sauce.

[Ser Leftwich]

Honestly, having a beef with Hightower being the one to send Rhaegar back is pretty weak sauce.

Seconded. We know that Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar. We can suppose the why all we want, we do not know the why.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Seconded. We know that Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar. We can suppose the why all we want, we do not know the why.

Agreed. And to further the point about Rhaegar possibly exploiting a loophole in Hightower's orders-- if he was concerned that Aerys would compel Ser Gerold to reveal Lyanna's location, or even to return with her, all the more reason for him to find that loophole. Which also fits with my notion that Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna from his father.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Seconded. We know that Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar. We can suppose the why all we want, we do not know the why.

Yep. Gerold did go get him. The "mystery" I guess is why Gerold stayed at the Tower. My scenario shows how Gerold could have fulfilled Aerys's order to get Rhaegar and Rhaegar's order to stay at the Tower without being in conflict with either. :D

Agreed. And to further the point about Rhaegar possibly exploiting a loophole in Hightower's orders-- if he was concerned that Aerys would compel Ser Gerold to reveal Lyanna's location, or even to return with her, all the more reason for him to find that loophole. Which also fits with my notion that Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna from his father.

Also an excellent point. As far as Rhaegar was concerned, perhaps Gerold knew too much. And if Aerys did ask, Hightower would be honor-bound and oath-bound to tell him. So he had to be ordered to stay.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Seconded. We know that Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar. We can suppose the why all we want, we do not know the why.

Exactly. Hightower going out to find Rhaegar, nothing weird about that. And as to why he stayed at the tower, that had most likely to do with whatever Rhaegar said to him. But Lyanna was there, that much we know, so that will have featured in Rhaegars decisions most likely.

[J. Stargaryen]

"I know about the promise ..." Brilliant.

And no, I don't think it's unintentional that it's a Lyanna and a Wylla who are arguing in favor of a Stark king (and possibly Jon himself, depending on the interpretation of the will). But that's for another thread. :P

I just remembered something that makes the connection a lot stronger, too. Right before Wylla launches into her speech, her mother says to her:

“Hush, child,” said Lady Leona. “You heard your lord grandfather. Hush! You know nothing."

To which Wylla responds:

"I know about the promise,"...