Allyria SnowSand?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

From the moment I read about Allyria I had this idea/theory that she is Ashara's and OneoftheStarks' bastard daughter.

What we know.

-We know that until 298 she wasn't married but she was betrothed with Beric. That tells me that she was about 15 years old (like Lyanna who was betrothed but not married yet)

-She knows about Ashara and a Stark. That could mean that she knows who her parents are.

-She is much younger than her siblings.

What so you think?

[Alia of the knife]

From the moment I read about Allyria I had this idea/theory that she is Ashara's and OneoftheStarks' bastard daughter.

What we know.

-We know that until 298 she wasn't married but she was betrothed with Beric. That tells me that she was about 15 years old (like Lyanna who was betrothed but not married yet)

-She knows about Ashara and a Stark. That could mean that she knows who her parents are.

-She is much younger than her siblings.

What so you think?

Thanks!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Thanks!

You are welcome!

But do you think that there is the remote possibility that it could be true?

[CosimaistheHottest]

So did her mother or stepmother fake a pregnancy? Everyone already knew Ashara was knocked up so it wouldn't make any sense to pass her kid off as her sister when everyone already knows the truth. In Dorne, bastards aren't looked down on as much as others, but who knows. Every family is different.

You also have to take into account that Rhaegar is 23 years older than Dany and around 16 years older than Viserys

Cat hoped to get pregnant again and felt she could when Robb was 14.

Rhaenyra Targaryen's oldest son was like 15 and she was pregnant.

Heirs are everything to these people.

So it isn't surprising that her mother or stepmother could have a much younger child.

Allyria could have been 16 or 17 just then and Beric was indisposed at the moment to marry her but felt when he got back they could.

[Queen Alienor]

I like the theory :)

[CosimaistheHottest]

Also, why would Ashara kill herself when she had her baby to look after. I know this means she would have given her to her parents. But Ashara would still want to be around for her child to make sure she is okay.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

-She knows about Ashara and a Stark. That could mean that she knows who her parents are.

Edric says she tells him that Ashara and Ned, specifically, fell in love at Harrenhal. I think this is problematic for your theory in a couple of ways. If she's being passed off as Ashara's sister and knows it, you wouldn't think she'd want to spread hints of the truth of her parentage around. Second, if she's just 15, why is she the one telling Edric this? That would make her and Edric very close in age, so why would Allyria be the one passing this information to him? She would have to have gotten it from another source and then passed it on again, but it then it seems likely that Edric would have had that other person as the source of the information too. If she is closer to Beric's age, which is possible, she'd have been old enough at the time of Robert's Rebellion to have memory of these events and passed it on.

[jet199]

It used to be quite common for people to be brought up by their grandparents believing they were their parents and believing their mother was their sister. Of the top of my head Jack Nicholson, Eric Clapton and Catherine Cookson all grew up in this type of situation. It would make sense for a family in Westeros to have a similar secret.

[CosimaistheHottest]

It used to be quite common for people to be brought up by their grandparents believing they were their parents and believing their mother was their sister. Of the top of my head Jack Nicholson, Eric Clapton and Catherine Cookson all grew up in this type of situation. It would make sense for a family in Westeros to have a similar secret.

But people seemed to already know Ashara was pregnant. At least Barristan knew but it is quite possible that others knew too especially since she was forced to go back to Starfall.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It used to be quite common for people to be brought up by their grandparents believing they were their parents and believing their mother was their sister. Of the top of my head Jack Nicholson, Eric Clapton and Catherine Cookson all grew up in this type of situation. It would make sense for a family in Westeros to have a similar secret.

Agree. For a highborn lady a stillborn child could be easier overlooked than a bastard.

[Cripper]

Assuming she is not Ashara's sister.

I think it is unlikely but she could theoretically be the daughter of one of the Starks. If she is I am sure she will not have been told who her parents are. Someone will have told her an interesting romantic story about Ashara and Ned to help explain the suicide of her aunt.

Ned picked her betrothed to lead the expedition to bring Gregor to justice. There were other more politically sensible choices like Loras available. Maybe Beric got the job as a test or a mark of honour for someone about to marry Neds daughter/neice.

*** Crackpot Alert ***

Many people often claim Lyanna was married is a secret ceremony. If Allyria is Ned's daughter (maybe even if she was Brandons daughter) I am sure honourable Ned would at least have offered to marry Ashara . A secret marriage to either Stark would make Allyria the true heir to Winterfell. If she was Ned's legitimate daughter all his other children would be considered bastards.

She could also be Jon Snows twin adopted by the Daynes because she had the Targ look - purple eyes. Asharas suicide and the stories about Ned being in love with her could be a smokescreen. The theory Meera Reed is Ashara's and Howlands daughter would still work. Even if stories about the parentage of Allyria leaked out the Daynes could just say she was Ashara's bastard as the real mother & daughter were safely hidden in the neck

[Alia of the knife]

Though privately I feel Ashara has always been a red herring for Lyanna from book one, within the context of this theory and what could work, Allyria being the daughter of Brandon is not outside the realm of possibility, especially since GRRM himself has specifically opened the possibility of Brandon having bastards.

Perhaps Brandon offered Ashara marriage to get what he wanted from her as that seems his modus operandi, (wasn't it hinted that's what happened initially with Lady D, that she was "offered" to him in the hopes she could land the Stark heir)?

Ashara was from just an honorable House as the Starks and just because she is Dornish doesn't mean she was "easy."

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Though privately I feel Ashara has always been a red herring for Lyanna from book one, within the context of this theory and what could work, Allyria being the daughter of Brandon is not outside the realm of possibility, especially since GRRM himself has specifically opened the possibility of Brandon having bastards.

Perhaps Brandon offered Ashara marriage to get what he wanted from her as that seems his modus operandi, (wasn't it hinted that's what happened initially with Lady D, that she was "offered" to him in the hopes she could land the Stark heir)?

Ashara was from just an honorable House as the Starks and just because she is Dornish doesn't mean she was "easy."

Well I agree that if she is a Stark bastard she is most probably Brandon's but I want her to be Ned's.

Other than that, I don't believe that he tricked Lady Dustin. The hopes that she and her father had were not his fault. We don't even know if he wanted to marry Cat or his father made that choice for him like he did with Lyanna but since his betrothal with Cat was known he couldn't promise Ashara that he would marry her.

Nevertheless, I agree with the last part.

[Alia of the knife]

Well I agree that if she is a Stark bastard she is most probably Brandon's but I want her to be Ned's.

Other than that, I don't believe that he tricked Lady Dustin. The hopes that she and her father had were not his fault. We don't even know if he wanted to marry Cat or his father made that choice for him like he did with Lyanna but since his betrothal with Cat was known he couldn't promise Ashara that he would marry her.

Nevertheless, I agree with the last part.

No, I actually agree with the possibilty that he may have loved Ashara, and don't assume he was using her.

[Lady's Secret]

I know there is not an official Dayne family tree. But it seems to me that Arthur had three siblings that lived to adulthood. A brother, father of Edric Dayne, and his sisters Ashara and Allyria. Edric is the Lord of Starfall, so we know that his father is dead, along with Arthur and Ashara. Edric makes no mention of him having sisters or little brothers. If Edric has no surviving siblings that would make Allyria his heir. That could be the reason for delaying her marriage. Her family may have wanted to wait to find the right lord to marry her to in the event that she became the Lady of Starfall. This is just an option I thought of while trying to figure the Daynes out.

She could have been bethrothed to someone else that died before they could be married or perhaps she was widowed? There does seem to be a large gap of time between Arthur's birth and Allyria's.

We just don't know enough about the Daynes to make any solid guesses.

To the OP, I don't think Ned would have left Allyria behind if she was his or Brandon's daughter. Expecially after Ashara's death.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No, I actually agree with the possibilty that he may have loved Ashara, and don't assume he was using her.

I see.

I know there is not an official Dayne family tree. But it seems to me that Arthur had three siblings that lived to adulthood. A brother, father of Edric Dayne, and his sisters Ashara and Allyria. Edric is the Lord of Starfall, so we know that his father is dead, along with Arthur and Ashara. Edric makes no mention of him having sisters or little brothers. If Edric has no surviving siblings that would make Allyria his heir. That could be the reason for delaying her marriage. Her family may have wanted to wait to find the right lord to marry her to in the event that she became the Lady of Starfall. This is just an option I thought of while trying to figure the Daynes out.

She could have been bethrothed to someone else that died before they could be married or perhaps she was widowed? There does seem to be a large gap of time between Arthur's birth and Allyria's.

We just don't know enough about the Daynes to make any solid guesses.

To the OP, I don't think Ned would have left Allyria behind if she was his or Brandon's daughter. Expecially after Ashara's death.

Just to say that Allyria was betrothed, thus her family had decided about her husband. As we know she was betrothed to him until 294, which means that she wasn't married yet because she wasn't at age.

Maybe Ned didn't knew that Allyria was Ashara's.

[eggs]

Eh, I thought this was the case, but it seems kinda pointless.

[Ser Creighton]

Wouldn't someone notice an extra daughter of a noble house suddenly appearing? The Daynes are one big mystery. We know they are close with the Martells as Ashara was one of Elia's ladies in waiting. Elia, Oberyn and their mother visited Starfall. We don't know the name of Edric's parents, though it's assumed they were ruling Starfall during the Rebellion. But what happened to Arthur, his brother and Ashara and Allyria's parents? Not to mention what happed to Edric's parents? Where are the parents? Allyria had been engaged for like 5-6 years at least, Edric was 7 at the time and he was 12 in swords. Who arranged the marriage pact? Why would she rule over Edric at 12 if she was only a couple years older than him?

I only got one thing to say about Starfall. Starfall is messed up, you either get killed, go missing, kill yourself or are never mentioned.

[Maia]

To the OP, I don't think Ned would have left Allyria behind if she was his or Brandon's daughter. Expecially after Ashara's death.

Eh, why not? If she is a Stark offspring, then the Daynes arranged things so that she was a noblewoman and presumably cared about her. What could Ned offer her by comparison? A bastard's life, being forever stained by the circumstances of her conception?

A double insult and hurt to Cat, that both her betrothed _and_ her husband cheated on her?

And we have seen how it is worse for female bastards, since it makes them targets for seduction/rape, as they are supposed to be lustful and if anknowledged and given noble upbringing, the enticing blend of being almost a lady, but without protections of one.

Re: Edric's fostering and Allyria's betrothal - it may have been arranged by Edric's mother, if she survived her husband, or maybe a grandmother. BTW, do we know that Edric's father was ever a lord?

The length of Allyria's betrothal may have been tailored to the need of having a Dayne at Starfall, particularly given the Darkstar's reputation and resentment against the main branch. It is true that highborn girls normally marry between 14 and 18, but that's not always the case. Wynnfried (?) Manderly is 21 and unmarried, for instance. Not even betrothed before a Frey, as far as we know.

Similarly, it may be that Berric and Allyria's marriage was contractually tied to Edric getting his knighthood and returning home to take up his lordship. Yes, Allyria would have been 22-23 at the time, if she is Ashara's daughter, but that wouldn't have been the end of the world. It would be more of a problem if she is older than that, though (and thus truly Ashara's sister).

[joluoto2]

It's not impossible. I guess the motive would have to be that she wouldn't have to grow up a bastard. And then they lied that Ashara misscarried. However there is one problem. Ashara's suicide. I always thought her lost child was the main reason, combined with the loss of her lover (which Stark it happened to be still up for debate) and the loss of her brother. But would she really kill herself if her child was alive?