Warrior tiers

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Riding prowess should definitely count as a part of actual martial ability when discussing knights. Fighting from horseback is kind of a big part of their purpose. Likewise with Loras Tyrell. Being one of the best lancers in the realm should count for more than being really good at dueling, like Syrio, when discussing who is the better warrior, IMO.

This. Lets not forget that a knight's primary weapon on horseback is a lance. Until it breaks ofcourse.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him."

Hmm interesting, Rhaegar wounded already wounded Robert, while Robert smashed that healthy targ to a pulp.

[Dagon]

Cool thread, it looks good. What interested me about Rhaegar and his jousting was how people were taken aback by his sudden display of skills at the tourny. It makes me think that he was never really interested in it. Lyanna put some fire in him and gave him a reason to care. When he put his mind to it, he excelled.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Riding prowess should definitely count as a part of actual martial ability when discussing knights. Fighting from horseback is kind of a big part of their purpose. Likewise with Loras Tyrell. Being one of the best lancers in the realm should count for more than being really good at dueling, like Syrio, when discussing who is the better warrior, IMO.

Except fighting with a lance in battle is incredibly rare in this series, I think we have one case where Beric Dondarrion is killed by a lance. Rhaegar and Robert certainly didn't use lances. Riding a horse isn't some innate martial ability, it's as separate as the ability to juggle or swim despite both being activities that improve one's physical capabilities and hand-eye co-ordination. Rhaegar wasn't riding at Robert with a lance.

I just think it's absolutely worth separating riding ability from martial prowess. You could be the best rider in the world, and never lose a tourny with jousting, and still get your chest smashed in when you fight in a real battle from horse back. Not to mention it's not likely Robert and Rhaegar rode at each other a la jousting more than once or twice. Likely they met, turned and effectively were idle on their horses throwing blows at each other.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Except fighting with a lance in battle is incredibly rare in this series, I think we have one case where Beric Dondarrion is killed by a lance. Rhaegar and Robert certainly didn't use lances. Riding a horse isn't some innate martial ability, it's as separate as the ability to juggle or swim despite both being activities that improve one's physical capabilities and hand-eye co-ordination. Rhaegar wasn't riding at Robert with a lance.

Rare? You do know that every army that was mustered for the War of the Five Kings included literally thousands of heavy cavalry each right? Rhaegar's weapon during their duel is never specified as far as I know, and yes it definitely is a martial ability if the fight in question is fought on horseback, which most fights for Westerosi warriors would be. It's not like they just walk their horses up to each other and then let them stand still there while they just swing away at each other like they were standing on the ground. Mounted combat was very much about using the mobility of the horse during the fight, as well as using it as a literal weapon (having it bite and kick on command etc).

[Sansa_Stark]

Rare? You do know that every army that was mustered for the War of the Five Kings included literally thousands of heavy cavalry each right? Rhaegar's weapon during their duel is never specified as far as I know, and yes it definitely is a martial ability if the fight in question is fought on horseback, which most fights for Westerosi warriors would be. It's not like they just walk their horses up to each other and then let them stand still there while they just swing away at each other like they were standing on the ground. Mounted combat was very much about using the mobility of the horse during the fight, as well as using it as a literal weapon (having it bite and kick on command etc).

What about this quote. "Three hundred, perhaps four...among three thousand armored lances who are not knights."

So that's thousands of armored men with lances from the north alone, and not even the full strength of it.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Rare? You do know that every army that was mustered for the War of the Five Kings included literally thousands of heavy cavalry each right?

Cool then go find some textual evidence that Rhaegar used a lance, and that when men on horseback meet each other the battle magically parts allowing them to ride at each other in the way you suggest. Riding a horse isn't martial ability.

[Sansa_Stark]

Cool then go find some textual evidence that Rhaegar used a lance, and that when men on horseback meet each other the battle magically parts allowing them to ride at each other in the way you suggest. Riding a horse isn't martial ability.

"Freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances."

[C0bR]

Lance is a weapon for a charge. Once the fighting gets close and tight, you have to go away from it (if you still somehow have it in your hands) and go for your sword/morningstar/hammer/etc...

Skill with lance and horsemanship should definitely count. Riding especially becomes much harder when you have to control the horse in close quarters while trying to not get killed from an attack from every side. Any idiot can charge straight.

I doubt Rhaegar had a lance in his hands at that point of the battle, since they do not seem to meet at the beggining and it is not a good weapon for a duel anyway. That does not take away anything from him. Robert probably used a lance too, when the situation called for it.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

"Freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances."

Doesn't meet the criteria of my post

[Sansa_Stark]

Doesn't meet the criteria of my post

Regardless, will you admit that lances aren't these rarely used weapons?

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Cool then go find some textual evidence that Rhaegar used a lance, and that when men on horseback meet each other the battle magically parts allowing them to ride at each other in the way you suggest. Riding a horse isn't martial ability.

Well he won a tournament by using it, as for the battle of the Trident nothing is said about what he had, aside from his cool black plate armor with ruby decorations. As for your second point well, I guess the real medieval knights were fools for practicing riding skills so much then. No, for example this video from about 26:30 illustrates a couple of medieval techniques used for mounted combat that shows that it really wasn't just about stopping the horse in front of the enemy and then going ahead as if one was standing still on the ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As1rGnx9vng.

Really your claim is a bit like saying that flying skill isn't a part of the martial ability of being a fighter pilot, only aiming the weapons and deploying countermeasures is.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Really your claim is a bit like saying that flying skill isn't a part of the martial ability of being a fighter pilot, only aiming the weapons and deploying countermeasures is.

If my claim as really as insane as what you just posted, you wouldn't have had to make such an insane comparison that totally misrepresents what I said. Rhaegar riding well didn't win him the fight did it? Deal with it.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

If my claim as really as insane as what you just posted, you wouldn't have had to make such an insane comparison that totally misrepresents what I said. Rhaegar riding well didn't win him the fight did it? Deal with it.

It pretty much is. Footwork is a very important part of fighting on foot. When fighting on horseback, horsemanship takes the place of footwork since that is how one moves around instead of using the feet.

No it didn't, so what? Nothing says Robert wasn't a good rider either by the way.

[kephv]

I have always hated S tier. It shouldn't exist.

It could exist as 'shit tier' for which Jaime would also apply.

[DominusNovus]

Loras should be in a comparable tier to Jaime, either equal or just below. Jaime does specifically note that Loras is very skilled at various points in Storm and Feast, and admits that when Loras beat him, it probably wasn't a fluke. The only negative Jaime can note is that Loras is proud and arrogant, which is to be expected from a teenager. Plus, he's clever enough to fight with unorthodox tactics, such as at the Tourney of the Hand.

[l3ol3o]

Not a bad list. Your missing a few badasses though. Also Asha is too high. Yes she is awesome but she killed a bunch of guys armored with sticks and leaves. Tyrion put on a similar show during the BoBW. When she faced someone skilled she got captured. Ned should be a tier higher. He killed Dayne and held his own against Jaime for a while.

[Sansa_Stark]

Loras should be in a comparable tier to Jaime, either equal or just below. Jaime does specifically note that Loras is very skilled at various points in Storm and Feast, and admits that when Loras beat him, it probably wasn't a fluke. The only negative Jaime can note is that Loras is proud and arrogant, which is to be expected from a teenager. Plus, he's clever enough to fight with unorthodox tactics, such as at the Tourney of the Hand.

That was in jousting, not sword fighting though. While Loras is an excellent warrior, I think Jaime is probably at least quite a bit better considering Brienne's thoughts that "no knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength"

And Brienne should have some idea of Loras abilties.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Robert/Rhaegar didn't strike me as some lop sided ass kicking. Sure Robert won but according to everybody in the books Robert was a superior warrior. Still Rhaegar was said to be a good fighter, he excelled in everything he tried even fighting. Losing a fight to Robert is like losing a basketball game to Lebron James. Sure he'll probably win but how close did you get?

[Usrnmhsnomning]

No it didn't, so what? Nothing says Robert wasn't a good rider either by the way.

Nothing says he was a good rider, so excuse me for assuming a man who is known for entering melees and hasn't won a jousting tourny isn't a good rider.