Jump to content

Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People


Happy Ent

Recommended Posts

Ever since reading WLW I've assumed that Mek let Kellhus go because he was "allowing for the prophecies, the true and the false", or however Aurang puts it when he's talking to Soma-Spy. If it's important to the plot, then Mek just being crazy and wanting to remember him doesn't make much sense.



Though I've also wondered what the hell one of the Grandmasters of the Consult was doing just wondering around the North with some Sranc. Obviously there's more to that whole meeting than we're being told, since Bakker apparently didn't even want us to know it was Mek, correct (didn't he reveal it accidentally or something?).


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Though I've also wondered what the hell one of the Grandmasters of the Consult was doing just wondering around the North with some Sranc. Obviously there's more to that whole meeting than we're being told, since Bakker apparently didn't even want us to know it was Mek, correct (didn't he reveal it accidentally or something?).

What I was thinking while reading that scene is what the hell is that nonman sorcerer thinking getting into a fist sword fight with someone that he could easily kill with sorcery? Had it not occurred to him that some people carry choraes? And now I find out that he's one of the leaders of the consult...wtf was he doing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I was thinking while reading that scene is what the hell is that nonman sorcerer thinking getting into a fist sword fight with someone that he could easily kill with sorcery? Had it not occurred to him that some people carry choraes? And now I find out that he's one of the leaders of the consult...wtf was he doing?

IF Kellhus had Chorae he would feel it, and that's what the Sranc -that Kellhus surprisingly killed- was for. Of course, this raises the question of what the point of going out and supervising Sranc as they kill people is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IF Kellhus had Chorae he would feel it, and that's what the Sranc -that Kellhus surprisingly killed- was for.

Huh? Could you clarify I have no idea what you're saying here.

Do sorcerers feel Chorae even if they can't see it? If so, why didn't Achamnian feel the Chorae of Geshruni before he took it out? And how are the Sranc going to tell Mek whether Kellhus has a Chorae or not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mek is not in his right mind. But he's likely sane enough to realize that he needs to color his day to day experiences with trauma to create new memories.



This is why he travels with Sranc, and possibly also why he doesn't kill Kellhus with a quick spell -> he wants to prolong the suffering of the victims he finds.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Huh? Could you clarify I have no idea what you're saying here.

Do sorcerers feel Chorae even if they can't see it? If so, why didn't Achamnian feel the Chorae of Geshruni before he took it out? And how are the Sranc going to tell Mek whether Kellhus has a Chorae or not?

Sorcerers feel Chorae within a certain range, not sure how far. The Sranc were just going to kill or incapacitate Kellhus and whoever they ran into so it wasn't likely they'd get close enough to use one anyway,not that many people up north have one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bottom line there, Hello World Alt, is that Mek would certainly feel a chorae, so he could assume with 100% certainty at that proximity that Kellhus doesn't have one.

Ok, but why didn't Achamian sense that Geshrunni had a Chorae when they were so close that Geshrunni was actually holding Achamian's wrist? And if he did sense it, why was he about to say a sorcerous word until Geshrunni pulled the Chorae out from underneath his vest? Does it only work if the person is holding it as opposed to having it around their neck for example?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are several parts in the first few chapters where all of Bakker’s ideas haven’t yet taken form.

For instance, a skin spy removes Geshrunni’s face. At that time, RSB still thought skin spies needed original faces to impersonate somebody.

Kellhus ought to notice Mek’s Mark, but doesn’t. This is later retconned, I can’t remember where, when Kellhus recalls the “strange torsion” around Mek.

Chorae can be felt a long way off, in Judging Eye they are felt across floors of a tunnel system.

Clearly Kellhus should have absolutely no chance against Mekertrig. And the No-God is an invention of the Consult, not the Inchoroi, so Mekertrig never fought against Him. (He did fight the Inchoroi.)

All of these are mistakes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TDTCB, Prlg, p32, 2004 Canadian paperback:

And then came the word, the word that, on hearing, wrenched the intellect somehow.

A furious incandescene. Like a petal blown from a palm, Kellhus was thrown backward. He rolled through the snow and, stunned, struggled to his feet. He watched numbly as the Nonman was drawn upright as though by a wire. Pale watery light formed a sphere around him. The ice rain sputtered and hissed against it. Behind him rose the great tree.

Sorcery? But how could it be?

Ch. 17, p565:

How was this possible? Sorcery? If so, it possessed nothing of the strange torsion he'd experienced with the Nonman he'd battled so long ago. Sorcery, Kellhus had realized, was inexplicably grotesque - like the scribblings of a child across a work of art - though he did not know why. All he knew was that he could distinguish the sorcery from the world and sorcerers from common men. This was among the many mysteries that had motivated his study of Drusas Achamian.

Ch. 1, p40:

The man withdrew his hand and produced the Chorae. He winked, then with terrifying abruptness, snapped the golden chain holding it about his neck. Achamian had sensed it from their first encounter, had actually used its unnerving murmur to identify Geshrunni's vocation. Now Geshrunni would use it to identify him.

There are several parts in the first few chapters where all of Bakker’s ideas haven’t yet taken form.

For instance, a skin spy removes Geshrunni’s face. At that time, RSB still thought skin spies needed original faces to impersonate somebody.

...

Clearly Kellhus should have absolutely no chance against Mekertrig. And the No-God is an invention of the Consult, not the Inchoroi, so Mekertrig never fought against Him. (He did fight the Inchoroi.)

All of these are mistakes.

Got nothing for these two. However, we don't know that the No-God's is an Inchoroi conception or not, whether it relies on sorcery/tekne or just tekne, or even if the No-God wasn't part of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, really. After all, Moenghus the Elder says "Void has come twice" to Earwa.

The Black Heavens might have risen before...

After all, the Nonmen warned Seswatha about the possibility of the No-God before its advent during the First Apocalypse and we know they jealously hoarded information about their wars with the Inchoroi from men, even when they were Siqu to humankind...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fight scene between Kellhus, the Sranc, and then Mekeritig is one of my favorites in any novel ever. It seems like it'd be an awesome video game level. Mekeritig just walks in like a level boss, with a cool intro and shit.



A First Apocalypse game would be so cool too. Although, I'm imagining a JRPG, not an action game. You could even get a standard RPG trio going, Nau-Cayuti, Seswatha, and that concubine of his that gets stolen would be the healer... because whatever.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

After all, the Nonmen warned Seswatha about the possibility of the No-God before its advent during the First Apocalypse and we know they jealously hoarded information about their wars with the Inchoroi from men, even when they were Siqu to humankind...

Something I've wondered about is why Seswatha went into Golgoterath to steal the Heron Spear before the No-God was even summoned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



The impossible words were there, poised in Achamian’s thought, words that could blind eyes and blister flesh. He leaves me no choice. There would be an uproar. Men would bellow, clutch their swords, but they would do nothing but scramble from his path. More than any people in the Three Seas, the Ainoni feared sorcery.

No choice.

But Geshrunni had already reached beneath his embroidered vest. His fist bunched beneath the fabric. He grimaced like a grinning jackal.

Too late . . .


“You look,” Geshrunni said with menacing ease, “like you have something to say.” The man withdrew his hand and produced the Chorae.







This passage is implying that as long as Geshrunni kept the Chorae underneath his clothes Achamian's sorcery would have worked against him.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rereading "False Sun", something that I've missed before, its in the "Enter Aurang" scene

The Archidemu Mangaeccu turned to the newcomer as much to conceal his smile as to bask in the glory of his foul image. For he had literally wept upon finding him and his brother, wept for joy, knowing that the two could decipher the horror of what they had seen.

Somehow I was under impression that Inchies were showing everyone the Inverse Fire, "converting" people to their cause, but apparently it was not exactly like that.
My new understanding upon re-reading is:
Sometime in the past three Nonmen, among them Cet'ingira enter the Ark, and see Inverse fire. They actually knew some rumors before going in, and there were no Inchie involvment as far as forcing them or whatever, it was specifically an expedition to check out IF and debunk it I guess.
Two of them get completely mad, Cet'ingira did not got mad, but got convinced that the whole "hiding in places between gods" thing is not working, and Inchies were right all along.
The top nonman Quya at the time, the Artisian upon hearing such herecies seals the Ark with Barricades, so that no other people get infected.
Centuries upon centuries Cet'ingira and his allies try to break the barricades, but only succeed when Shae whos not powerful, but smartish, gets an key insight.
It takes Cet'ingira six days of Canting to break the barricades, he knocks himself out with the final effort.
Shae gets in, and experiences Inverse Fire.

Later they dig out Aurang and Aurax, who were in some kind of suspended animation, in the hopes that they can explain away the Inverse Fire, but Aurang/Aurax actually just confirm it instead, saying only way to avoid it is not to die, and the Consult is born.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A question, though; why doesn't Kellhus see the Mark on Mek?

He does notice it, but does not think much of it at the time.

Its mentioned later in the scene when Kelthus sees his first skin spy (the emperor's advisor), and he thinks "Surprisingly he did not have the slight air of unreality about him like the Nonmen or Achamian that Kelthus learned to associate with presence of sorcery".

So the hint that Kelthus was one of the Few was given early in the 1st book, but it was a bit subtle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TJE, Ch. 6, p237, 2010 Canadian paperback:

This was uncharacteristic. Not the worry, for indecision riddled Celmomas to the core, but the worry's expression. Back then, no one save the Nonmen of Ishterebinth understood the stakes of the war that embroiled them. Back then, "apocalypse" was a word with a different meaning.

Achamian nodded in Seswatha's slow and deliberate way. "You mean the No-God," he said with a small laugh - a laugh! Even for Seswatha, that name had been naught but a misgiving, more abstraction than catastrophe.

How did one relive such ancient ignorance?

...

"What if this... this thing... is as mighty as the Quya say? What if we are too late?"

"We are not too late."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Mek helped Seswatha escape with the Heron Spear, wouldn't that qualify as having fought against the No-God?



Also possible the No-God was always directing the Ichies since before the Ark fell, but was only able to incarnate via the vessel called the Carapace.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Mek helped Seswatha escape with the Heron Spear, wouldn't that qualify as having fought against the No-God?

:dunno: Anything qualifies when you're insane. It might make sense if he's the one who informed Seswatha about the No-God and the Heron Spear in the first place, kind of acting like a spy or a double agent. But since he's the one who brought the Mangaecca to Golgoterath it only works if he turned against the consult after hearing about the No-God. That was before he returned back to the consult's side and fought for the No-God... Like I said, the guy is insane. He actually told Seswatha that he loves in TTT, but has to do the things he hate because he's erractic. So he's not pure evil.

Actually, this really goes to show that the simplest explanation are most often the correct ones, Bakker made a mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bakker made a mistake.

The correct verbiage in this little community is “Bakker deceived himself” or “Bakker’s readers were not reading the text carefully enough.”

There are no mistakes when there are no readers left.

(Yes, I’m rambling.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...