Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[Hello World Alt]

O_o

Sorry, I forgot to say that by the time Achamian's daughter turns into the Yes-God, Achamian's son Moenghus (remember he had sex with Serwe that one night) will have arrived at Golgoterath and he, like Nau-Cayuti will turn into the No-God. TUC will end with an epic battle between the two of them.

[Sci-2]

Serwe was already pregnant when she and Akka copulate.

So, like Micheal said to Billy Jean, Lil' Moe is not his son.

eta: forgot Billy Jean was the woman, not an alt for Micheal.

[Hello World Alt]

Hmmm...I don't read it that way. To me it's more like "Here's how big a deal I am, manling. You know that OG they call the No-God? The baddest motherfucker on the planet? Well me and him have been fighting on both sides of this shit you can barely understand."

For the record English Isn't my first language so I could be way off.

I rather like my theory the more I think about it. I've always looked at that line and thought "How did Mek fight on both sides?" and I think most others did too. And all along perhaps we should have been thinking "when was the No-God actually on the other side of the Consult? Before he became the No-God, perhaps?"

This is very interesting. I guess I was just too quick to call [it] a mistake because it fits perfectly if you'd only replace the word No-God with Inchoroi. But if this is something that Bakker did on purpose, then well done to him.

[Sci-2]

Random thought -> I wonder if the Whirlwind has any symbolic attachment to God in the Book of Job?

If he just kills a bunch of sranc if he switches sides again, who cares?

This is my current prevailing theory. Mek switched sides a few times, but the Consult purposefully had him leading legions of Sranc [away from the more precious Wracu and Bashrag].

So Shae and the Inchies would just laugh about their silly friend. "Oh Mek, there he goes again fighting against the Whirlwind..."

[Sci-2]

I just can't see that line to Kellhus actually just meaning "I forgot I was hellbent on the extermination of the entire world and got side-tracked killing a sranc tribe." The whole quote speaks of grandiosity.

Making the Enemy both pathetic and threatening is Bakker's forte.

The Consult is the doddering, abusive, drunken relative who is just bigger than your childhood self.

[Dracostar]

So I've just finished my first reread of the series and I have a few questions:

Nil'giccas was an erratic and is now dead. Who is it then that Sorweel and co. are going to meet?

Are the only known forms of sorcery in the series Gnostic, Anagogic (including Daimotic), Psukhe, and Aporetic?

It mentions in WLW that the new Grandmaster of the Mandate has mastered a 'metagnostic cant' - is that like the teleportation that Kellhus and Serwa are capable of?

[Francis Buck]

So I've just finished my first reread of the series and I have a few questions:

Nil'giccas was an erratic and is now dead. Who is it then that Sorweel and co. are going to meet?

Are the only known forms of sorcery in the series Gnostic, Anagogic (including Daimotic), Psukhe, and Aporetic?

It mentions in WLW that the new Grandmaster of the Mandate has mastered a 'metagnostic cant' - is that like the teleportation that Kellhus and Serwa are capable of?

1.) We don't know. There's clearly something fishy going on with Ishterebinth, since they're lying about their king (or they're somehow being deceived themselves). According to Nil'giccas, Ishterebinth has turned to the Consult. Whether that's true, or half-true, or not true at all, we just don't know.

2.) To my knowledge yes, though might also be able to throw in the "divine" magic used by the likes of Porpsarian and Psatma, which seems to be in a class of its own (and it may be incorrect to think of it as "sorcery" at all).

3.) Yup. Historically there were only legends of such things, namely a Nonman named Su'juroit.

[unJon]

There are several parts in the first few chapters where all of Bakkers ideas havent yet taken form.

For instance, a skin spy removes Geshrunnis face. At that time, RSB still thought skin spies needed original faces to impersonate somebody.

Kellhus ought to notice Meks Mark, but doesnt. This is later retconned, I cant remember where, when Kellhus recalls the strange torsion around Mek.

Chorae can be felt a long way off, in Judging Eye they are felt across floors of a tunnel system.

Clearly Kellhus should have absolutely no chance against Mekertrig. And the No-God is an invention of the Consult, not the Inchoroi, so Mekertrig never fought against Him. (He did fight the Inchoroi.)

All of these are mistakes.

Late to this party but wanted to add that Inrau can cast a crazy hands of fire spell is not consistent with how the Mandate teach sorcery per Akka in TTT. Inrau was never marked so he never cast a spell and Akka tells Kel that you are marked by casting baby spells long before you learn enough sorcery to defend yourself with it.

On the other hand I thought Mek did fight against the no god. Didn't he free Seswatha from the wall of terrors he was chained to in one of Akka's dreams? I had assumed he switched sides back and forth a bit.

ETA: I see several people beat me to the Mek thing. I don't see this as a Bakker mistake.

[Francis Buck]

Not especially contributive, but I always liked that thing Inrau did with the double-finger kung-fu fire knife thing. I wish there was more of that as opposed to the endless Combs of Whoever and Odaini Concussion Cants. I mean it makes sense, story-wise, but it feels kind of...numbing. It's like how in the first series, the Sranc seemed like this incredibly deadly foe. They were scary as hell. But then in the AE they essentially become cannon fodder; which, again, makes sense in context of the story, but it put a whole new veneer on the first trilogy. It almost makes the PoN seem quaint or something. But, again, I suppose that could be the point.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

The sorcery probably hadn't been totally hashed out yet, but we do see Akka using "skin wards" later in the series, so Inrau's spell could reasonably be some modification thereof.

The elephant in the room with Inrau is Onkis. I think if we reread this passage knowing what we know as of WLW with regards to immortal power, the whole thing makes sense as an intervention. See for yourself (italics from text, bolding mine):

Onkis? Treacherous-god-bitch!

Through the terror an impossible certainty seized him. A revelation. Words of prayer had become tissue. Beneath he sensed other words, words of power.

[He asks the Synthese a question] He cared nothing for the answer, and everything for the time.

please-remember-please-remember...

[....]

yes-yes-yes-that's-it-that's-it-but-what-comes-next? What-comes-after?

[....]

that's-it-that's-it-that's-it!

Inrau sense Mujonish looming behind. Prayer seized his tongue. Blasphemy tumbled from his lips. Turning with sorcerous speed, he punched two fingers through Mujonish's chainmail, cracked his breastbone, then seized his heart. He yanked his hand free, drawing a cord of glittering blood into the air. More impossible words. The blood burst into incandescent flame .........

So there are a few things to look at here.

1. He directly invokes Onkis right before remembering the words. The word Bakker uses is "revelation" which has a heavily religious connotation.

2. Bakker tells us twice that Inrau is actually speaking prayers, not sorcery, and yet sorcery comes out.

3. This is farther-fetched, but there are a lot of parallels between this scene and the famous scene under Umiaki. Both involve someone performing a magical act that they shouldn't be able to do in a religious context that involve a ripped-out heart and flaming blood. I posit that this is evidence that both are divine in nature.

[Kalbear]

The word Bakker uses is "revelation" which has a heavily religious connotation.

Kinda. In Bakkerverse it's also akin to shouting 'eureka'. Kellhus uses revelation at the probability trance's conclusion.

[Sci-2]

Are the only known forms of sorcery in the series Gnostic, Anagogic (including Daimotic), Psukhe, and Aporetic?

There was also the School of Contrivers, whose siqu Emilidis made - or helped make - both the False Sun and the Barricades.

They seemed to primarily use the Gnosis to build artifacts.

It mentions in WLW that the new Grandmaster of the Mandate has mastered a 'metagnostic cant' - is that like the teleportation that Kellhus and Serwa are capable of?

Right now teleportation is the only spell we know of that requires a third inutteral. I think every so often we've tried to think about what other spells Kellhus could create using the "meta" magic but AFAIK nothing has really stuck as a definite possibility.

[Maithanet]

Hmmm...I don't read it that way. To me it's more like "Here's how big a deal I am, manling. You know that OG they call the No-God? The baddest motherfucker on the planet? Well me and him have been fighting on both sides of this shit you can barely understand."

I interpreted it as "I am such an erratic that I will actually work to foil my own plans". Mek wants to summon the No-God and seal off the outside, but he is also fucking crazy. So at times he does things that actually work against his own purposes, such as helping recover the Heron-Spear, etc. Why would he do that? Well obviously he remembers the No-God, and that time, better than he remembers a lot of things. Presumably foiling his own plan, and potentially exposing himself to eternal damnnation, would leave a scar deeper even than killing your own children.

That does call into question why the Consult still trusts him, but frankly we don't know that they do. Mek hasn't done anything in the series since then, it's entirely possible he is outcast from the Consult hierarchy entirely. And if he did leave, the Consult might not even have the power to track him down and kill him at this point. Nonmen are very dangerous, so at the least it would be risky, and the Consult are very risk averse given that they know what will happen if they die.

[Francis Buck]

Interesting interpretation. For what it's worth, Cleric uses an almoat identical (seeming) spell to cook some food for the Skin-Eaters.

[Sci-2]

Interesting interpretation. For what it's worth, Cleric uses an almoat identical (seeming) spell to cook some food for the Skin-Eaters.

?

[Maithanet]

Maith - We have no evidence whatsoever that Mek helped recover the Heron Spear, right? That's just some theory someone just threw out?

I don't remember if there is any textual evidence of that. It seems very plausible that they recieved some help, given the odds that were stacked against them. And to me Mek (or some other erratic) seems like the most likely candidate, but that is all speculation.

Nonetheless, whether it was the Heron Spear specifically, or something else, it stands to reason (IMO) that erratics would fight on both sides of a war. Their betrayal goes both ways. And thus, Mek could quite realistically work hard to summon the No-God and then later fight to destroy it.

[Francis Buck]

?

It happens at some point during their trek across the Istyuli plains. They can catch some kind of animal and Cleric cooks it by dragging his burning finger across the meat. Stood out to me because of the resemblance to Inrau's little maneuver.

[Maithanet]

It happens at some point during their trek across the Istyuli plains. They can catch some kind of animal and Cleric cooks it by dragging his burning finger across the meat. Stood out to me because of the resemblance to Inrau's little maneuver.

I think that the confusion was that you responded with "interesting interpretation" but your comment wasn't about the post immediately above it, and nobody knew that you were talking about Inrau. I assume that you were talking about Wrath's post.

[Sci-2]

It happens at some point during their trek across the Istyuli plains. They can catch some kind of animal and Cleric cooks it by dragging his burning finger across the meat. Stood out to me because of the resemblance to Inrau's little maneuver.

Ah, I missed Wrath's post and wasn't sure who you were responding to.

Doesn't Mek use the spell to torture Seswatha when the latter is hung on the wall at Dagilash?

[Francis Buck]

Ah, yeah, sorry, was referring to Wrath's post.