Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[Francis Buck]

So I've been doing a ton of random re-readings of the series now that I have Kindle versions, and one thing I've recently been pondering is the idea that the gods are related to each other (in the sense of being married to each other, or siblings). How literal do you guys think this is? I mean, my assumption is that it's not just made-up legends, and that there is some kind of metaphysical significance to these relations. It's also interesting because, from what I can see, there are no sons or daughters, just married couples and siblings. Another tidbit is that Yatwer is referenced as being the eldest of the Hundred...which sort of implies that these beings may not always existed. I don't have some overarching point here, just kinda spitballing, but I curious for opinions.

(personally speaking, I think some of this supports my nerdaneling that the gods are entities born from the noospheric subconscious of mankind, by virtue of having evolved on Earwa).

[Gaston de Foix]

Small Questions from my first re-read

What happened to Nin-janjin? What was his ultimate destiny (I assume he is dead?)

[Callan S.]

I think the hundred came about when the server load got too high and the system semi crashed, generating disparate results.

Consult just want to stop the baby based denial of service attack.

And then rape everyone - hmmm, can't win...

[Melphis Amekia]

I don't know if it has reached the forum here or not (and been discussed), but in an interview with I read he was asked about the Tusk, or more specificaly how the Tusk came to be - which was an Inchoroi machination to bring the people of Eanna to Earwa to destroy the Nonmen. http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

To me it begs the question - if everything in the Tusk is a fabrication and propaganda, what are actually 'the Hundred' and the Gods here?

Sorry if it was already posted here. I'd hope to be part of the discussion anyway, but I need to do a serious, detailed re-read of the books to be more-less useful here.

[Sci-2]

Welcome!

One thing we've discussed is how much of the Tusk is fabrication. There's some suspicion the Inchies added the prohibition against sorcery in addition to marking the Nonmen as false men.

[Madness]

I don't know if it has reached the forum here or not (and been discussed), but in an interview with I read he was asked about the Tusk, or more specificaly how the Tusk came to be - which was an Inchoroi machination to bring the people of Eanna to Earwa to destroy the Nonmen. http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

To me it begs the question - if everything in the Tusk is a fabrication and propaganda, what are actually 'the Hundred' and the Gods here?

Sorry if it was already posted here. I'd hope to be part of the discussion anyway, but I need to do a serious, detailed re-read of the books to be more-less useful here.

Bakker's interview is misleading, SOTO. I think the consensus is that only the "Nonmen are False" and "Invade Earwa" are actually additions while the rest of the Tusk reflects actual, pre-Inchoroi beliefs.

But we question everything and I +1 Sci's mention that perhaps the "Sorcerers are Damned" is also an addition.

It always raises the question for me: Why would Bakker tell us that "Nonmen are False" before The Unholy Consult, as now we are primed to be juxtaposed to the prevalent Earwan belief of the characters as they meet the Ishterebithian Nonmen. Also, does him telling us that in an interview suggest that that little tidbit is never actually going to become clear in the text? 'Cause that would be strange indeed...

[Melphis Amekia]

Bakker's interview is misleading, SOTO. I think the consensus is that only the "Nonmen are False" and "Invade Earwa" are actually additions while the rest of the Tusk reflects actual, pre-Inchoroi beliefs.

But we question everything and I +1 Sci's mention that perhaps the "Sorcerers are Damned" is also an addition.

It always raises the question for me: Why would Bakker tell us that "Nonmen are False" before The Unholy Consult, as now we are primed to be juxtaposed to the prevalent Earwan belief of the characters as they meet the Ishterebithian Nonmen. Also, does him telling us that in an interview suggest that that little tidbit is never actually going to become clear in the text? 'Cause that would be strange indeed...

It should have been obvious he's misleading us so casually, I mean it's not like he's doing it all the time :D

Just a question - are there any news on when the TUC is coming out?

[Madness]

The post The Four Goads (at the Crossroads) from Bakker's blog (which doesn't mention his fiction much) is the latest news any of us have at the moment, I believe.

[Sci-2]

On the condemnation of sorcerers, is my understanding correct that Shamans aren't damned according to the Tusk?

It seems to me that either the Shamans could Sing but also recollect the divine so they had no Mark, or that the shamans represent a time before magic users were seen as damned [but in fact bore the Mark].

[Madness]

From the A few questions... thread on Zombie Three-Seas, arguably the best Q&A ever (Thanks, White Lord, wherever the Journey has taken you):

Cu'jara Cinmoi, March 2005:

2) So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen. At the moment, that feels plenty deep, and it precedes the Tusk by quite a few thousand years. I haven't been looking at the history of Earwa so much from the standpoint of an 'absolute observer,' as from from the standpoint of what is known or thought to be known at the time of the Holy War. This isn't a rule that I adhere to, just a tendency I seem to have largely followed. There are things from the time of the Tusk I do want to flesh out, such as the conflict between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, the question of how the surviving Inchoroi brought Chorae, the 'Tears of God' to the Five Tribes before the Breaking of the Gates, and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men). Stuff like that.

Also, in searching for that tidbit; Scylvendi magi?:

Cu'jara Cinmoi, June 2005:

Though the capacity to work sorcery is innate, it's actual use requires much training and education - something which favours literate cultures. Though its possible for preliterate peoples to practice sorcery (sorcerers hailing from oral traditions are called Shamans), the Scylvendi have such a narrow notion of what constitutes 'honourable practice,' that the few Few that are born among them all become herdsmen and warriors. They think warring with words is womanish.

[Francis Buck]

Speaking of Scylvendi, do you guys think they might still have the Heron Spear from when they sacked Sauglish or wherever it was held (I think it's Sauglish)?

Another thing I've wondered about is why Kellhus didn't bother trying to unite the Scylvendi in some fashion with the New Empire. A few hundred thousand of those dudes might have been a nice addition to the Ordeal.

Which brings me to a third unrelated Scylvendi question: Was Galian giving himself swazonds?

[Castel]

Another thing I've wondered about is why Kellhus didn't bother tryimg to unite the Scylvendi in some fashion with the New Empire. A few hundred thousand of those dudes might have been a nice addition to the Ordeal.

Pretty sure that Conphas put a permanent dent in them no? And then there's the whole matter of their religion..Kellhus just seems like a lazy bastard tbh, too much work.

[Sci-2]

Speaking of Scylvendi, do you guys think they might still have the Heron Spear from when they sacked Sauglish or wherever it was held (I think it's Sauglish)?

I think the Heron Spear was likely worthless after the last time it destroyed the Carapace.

How many charges can Sil's spear have?

[Kalbear]

It would also have been too fractious for the existing empire. None of those nations considered them to be allies and most thought them enemies and barbarians.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

1. The Spear was taken from Cenei by the Scylvendi. Whether or not they still have it someplace or whether it is still functional are unknown.

2. I think it just wasn't worth it for several reasons:

- They don't follow the same religion, so it would be difficult for Kellhus to win them over. Much like Zeum, he is content to pacify and cow them

- The other peoples of the Three Seas hate them, so bringing them into the fold would cause trouble amongst his adherents

- Conphas wiped out a generation of their warriors, so they are not as much of a threat or asset as they would have been in other times

Consider also two questions:

- Who is to say that Kellhus hasn't actually converted or won over some of them?

- How do we know that Kellhus didn't leave them more or less unchecked in their power for a specific reason?

3. Don't remember Galian cutting swazond

[Shryke]

Bakker's interview is misleading, SOTO. I think the consensus is that only the "Nonmen are False" and "Invade Earwa" are actually additions while the rest of the Tusk reflects actual, pre-Inchoroi beliefs.

The interview seems pretty crystal clear in saying that the only addition was the whole "kill the Non-men" bit. The rest is just a written version of the beliefs they already had.

[Madness]

Which brings me to a third unrelated Scylvendi question: Was Galian giving himself swazonds?

Pretty sure that's just some PTSD or something akin. If it was swazond, I don't think he was doing it right.

Pretty sure that Conphas put a permanent dent in them no?

+1

- Conphas wiped out a generation of their warriors, so they are not as much of a threat or asset as they would have been in other times

Consider also two questions:

- Who is to say that Kellhus hasn't actually converted or won over some of them?

- How do we know that Kellhus didn't leave them more or less unchecked in their power for a specific reason?

WLW, p60 ... p61, 2012 Canadian paperback:

Opposite Sorweel, beside the Successor-Prince, sat Tinurit of the Akkunihor, a Scylvendi tribe whose lands lay no more than two weeks' ride from the New Empire's capital. He was an imperious, imposing character and the only one who knew less Sheyic than Sorweel.

...

As far as Sorweel could tell, the single thing that distinguished their group from the other Scions was geography. Where others hailed from recalcitrant tribes and nations within the New Empire, they represented the few lands that still exceeded its grasp - at least until recently.

I'd suggest that Kellhus is only worried about the Akkunihor of all the remaining Scylvendi tribes and that their Chieftain, apparently, loves his son enough for Kellhus to assume that he will not risk Tinurit's life to send his tribe in Pilgrimage against the New Empire.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Madness - That's a good point. I had read that previously as the Akkunihor being "representative" of the Scylvendi since the King-of-Tribes was from there. But Kellhus would know that a hostage wouldn't hold the other tribes, so you are probably right.

Interestingly, though, Bakker has set up a Scylvendi invasion by the end of WLW, as Esmi recalls the Scylvendi Columns (IIRC).

[Sci-2]

Interestingly, though, Bakker has set up a Scylvendi invasion by the end of WLW, as Esmi recalls the Scylvendi Columns (IIRC).

Hmmm, I thought Kellhus had only lowered the defenses against a possible Zeumi invasion but I do recall something like this as well.

Sorta puts a dent in the idea that Kellhus wants Zeum to take over the Empire, but then it's also questionable if the Scylvendi would ally with the Consult again.

[Callan S.]

On another topic, if Earwa is an anagram of Aware, what is Eanna an anagram of?