Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

[Sci-2]

Sci - Mangaecca so hungered for knowledge they were already without scruples. With finding Aurang - an Inchoroi who had managed to seduce Kelhuss for a few seconds even as a Synthese - I guess it could push them through boundaries much easily to become as compassionless as the Inchoroi. The Inverse Fire just makes them even worse.

Did the Mangaecca experiment on people before?

It's just curious that people react to the IF in such a way as to perfect allies to the Inchies. They automatically think they themselves are damned, when there are several other possibilities. They no longer care about killing off millions (billions?) of people via the hordes of Sranc.

eta: The IF offers an experience and conviction to join the Inchies. Most people seem to believe Experience -> Convinction, I'm just offering the possibility it's IF -> (Experience + Conviction). After all, Big Moe did say conviction is often proof of deception.

p.s. As a side note, Aurang seduced Kellhus using magic rather than through any personal charm.

[Melphis Amekia]

Did the Mangaecca experiment on people before?

It's just curious that people react to the IF in such a way as to perfect allies to the Inchies. They automatically think they themselves are damned, when there are several other possibilities. They no longer care about killing off millions (billions?) of people via the hordes of Sranc.

eta: The IF offers an experience and conviction to join the Inchies. Most people seem to believe Experience -> Convinction, I'm just offering the possibility it's IF -> (Experience + Conviction). After all, Big Moe did say conviction is often proof of deception.

p.s. As a side note, Aurang seduced Kellhus using magic rather than through any personal charm.

Yeah, I know, I implied that those affected by that magic/whatever else are more easily 'converted' to their cause with IF being the icing on the cake. Why does it do what it does - we don't know yet, but still... I, uhm, guess it's not just that what they see is so horrid, but that it is so horrid because of what they are... or maybe it shows them that their kind is to suffer such damnation? We'll see...

[Ayx]

Another thing that I noticed when rereading the second book is in a scene, where a skinspy interrogates Swerwe, pretending to Kelthus, she sees his "haloed hands". There was no reason to include that part in the scene, other then to tell the reader that the whole "halo around his head and hands" thing with Kelthus is not real, and is just in the overexcited heads of his followers, since they see it on a skinspy impersonation

[Gaston de Foix]

Ayx, I suspect that this observation (which I also recently noticed) will come as no surprise to those who discuss the books on this forum, whose understanding of the books is far ahead of ours.

As to your specific point, yes, Serwe sees the haloed hands on the skinspy. However Serwe is somewhat deranged as her insistence that the babe which would grow up to be Anasurimbor Moenghus is Kellhus' son proves.

There is also the fact that Proyas never notices Kellhus' haloed hands during the Holy War (or at least not until the 65% of the second book I have read) but does in the Aspect Emperor series.

The real question is, how does Kellhus create such a delusion in the minds of his followers? It predates his knowledge of the Gnosis, and it is a distinct echo of the legends surrounding Inri Sejenus.

[Ayx]

There is also the fact that Proyas never notices Kellhus' haloed hands during the Holy War (or at least not until the 65% of the second book I have read) but does in the Aspect Emperor series.

The real question is, how does Kellhus create such a delusion in the minds of his followers? It predates his knowledge of the Gnosis, and it is a distinct echo of the legends surrounding Inri Sejenus.

It seem people start seeing haloes when they beleive something or someone divine. In the first trilogy Serwe is the first person to believe Kelthus to be divine, and she starts seeing halos the moment she starts calling Kelthus God in her internal monologue. By AE books, Proyas was started to believe too, and thus haloes appeared for him. But skinspy incident indicates they are not real. I'm sure that in Earwa world if someone gets high as a kite (Akka smokes hasish at one point), and somehow imagines their horse is a God, they'all see halo around the horse too

[Happy Ent]

Note that Kellhus himself sees haloes around his own hands.

[Castel]

All consistent with our dearly departed Moe's position.

[Sci-2]

But skinspy incident indicates they are not real.

Well, they indicate Serwa is prone to delusion. But in the same way iconography/idols in our world apparently are a conduit to the divine despite the materials involved in their construction remaining mundane, perhaps a replica of Kellhus in the flesh is also an idol.

We don't know how divinity works, so it's hard to say what's real and fake. Moreso if those within the Bakkerverse who posit the material universe is a dream of the God.

[Happy Ent]

But skinspy incident indicates they are not real.

You can’t say that in Eärwa. You’re projecting your own conceptualisation of “real” onto a world that has different metaphysics.

What we can say is that not everybody sees the haloes around Kellhus’s hands at the same time. Serwë is first. But after a while, Proyas and Esmi, and even Kellhus see them as well. (From memory, maybe false. Does Conphas ever see them?) This goes so far as Serwë seeing the haloes on fake Kellhuses.

Now, are the haloes “really there” or “only in people’s minds”? The question does not make sense. Remember that this a world where magic works, and reality (to various degrees) bends itself to the will of its denizens. Reality is constructed as fixpoint of feedback between the watcher and the watched.

[unJon]

What you always need to keep in mind with Bakkerverse is that the world conspires.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I don't believe Conphas ever sees them, but Proyas, Akka, Esmi, Serwë, and Kellhus himself all do at various points. Akka is the most interesting case, since his sight of the haloes comes and goes as he wars between awe and hatred of Kellhus internally.

Since the haloes seem tied to the observer's belief that Kellhus is divine, then they aren't "real" in the sense of being part of corporeal reality. It also makes sense that Serwë would see them on the skin-spy; since the haloes are in the mind of the observer, then she would see them on someone she believes to be Kellhus.

BUT. This is all missing the point. The point of the haloes is that they indicate Kellhus's divine nature. The fact that the haloes are only seen by believers doesn't mean that Kell isn't divine.

There is also the idea that the beliefs of people on Earwa influence the Outside, so even if the whole thing were nothing more than a mass delusion, the sheer weight of Kell's believers could make Kellhus divine.

[Francis Buck]

snip

All of this is spot on, in my opinion (as was HE's post above). I actually think it's why Bakker said that, in a certain sense, Serwe could be viewed as the most important character in the series; she was the first to believe Kellhus was God. She basically got the metaphysical ball rolling, and her conviction I think was very important. We're primed to believe she's delusional (which she was), but the twist is that she was actually right at the same time. Kellhus actuallly is (or will be) the manifestation of the God of Gods. He's a lie made flesh. That's what he realized on the Umiaki tree. That's also why he went "insane" (but remember, in Earwa, madness is an effect of the Outside leaking through -- thus explaining how he was spoken to by the God and No-God (though in fact I believe he was basically speaking to himself from the future, which makes sense when you consider that the Outside is, well, outside of both space and time).

[unJon]

. That's also why he went "insane" (but remember, in Earwa, madness is an effect of the Outside leaking through -- thus explaining how he was spoken to by the God and No-God ().

Catch 22. IIRC the only info we have that madness is the outside leaking in is from the mouth of a post-insane Kelhus. Or am I misremembering the source of that info?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

It came from Akka. The metaphor with the parchment and the water droplets.

[slim da reaper]

You can’t say that in Eärwa. You’re projecting your own conceptualisation of “real” onto a world that has different metaphysics.

What we can say is that not everybody sees the haloes around Kellhus’s hands at the same time. Serwë is first. But after a while, Proyas and Esmi, and even Kellhus see them as well. (From memory, maybe false. Does Conphas ever see them?) This goes so far as Serwë seeing the haloes on fake Kellhuses.

Now, are the haloes “really there” or “only in people’s minds”? The question does not make sense. Remember that this a world where magic works, and reality (to various degrees) bends itself to the will of its denizens. Reality is constructed as fixpoint of feedback between the watcher and the watched.

Ah but reality is constructed between 'a watcher' (a magician, a homunculus working within a mind) and 'the watched'.

I'd call consciousness a temporal working magician within a mind on what it watches. There is no reality but the one which is constructed. There are pre-existing 'natural' constructions separate from any perception but the mind (human and other) are a 'Pandora's box' bringing out aspects of 'the watched' both by time specific conscious and subconscious states. Aspects brought out are specific to certain mind states of a watcher (certainly not bound by species identification and never fixed even within the creator because of the nature of temporality).

[Pain]

I have read the series once, and am currently doing a re-read (reached about halfway through TWP).

There are a lot of unanswered questions and mysteries in the series, but the things that are bugging me the most right now are Moenghus's actions. Remember that he was the one who summoned Kellhus through dreams and started the ball rolling, but I cannot figure what why did he need Kellhus?

He found out about the Consult and skin-spies, and their plan to annihilate humans, and so he decided to stop them by uniting humanity and destroying one of the two major religions. Considering the fact that he was a Cishaurim and would never have been accepted by the Inrithi, it would have been logical for him to try to destroy Inrithism and convert the entire world to Fanim. However, by summoning Kellhus, he gave the holy war a really powerful leader and, ultimately victory. It is highly probable that without Kellhus, the holy war would have been destroyed, and the Fanim would have attacked the Inrithi lands in their weakened military state and won the whole three-seas.

If, on the other hand, Moenghus wanted the Inrithi to win, then he could have made things a whole lot easier for the holy war. Remember that the holy war was almost destroyed in the desert and it was a miracle that it survived Caraskand. There is no indication of any activity of Moenghus aimed at weakening the Fanim.

It seems that besides sowing the seeds of the Holy war and giving it a powerful leader, Moenghus was content to sit back and see how it all unfolds, and that he did not care which side was victorious, as long as one religion was destroyed. However, Dunyain control circumstances and it is clear that his own fate was dependent on which side won. As far as Kellhus is concerned, Moenghus had to know that Kellhus would try to kill him, and why would he want competition from another Dunyain (one who is younger and stronger), when he could have controlled the fate of the world on his own? There are hints that Moenghus either expected Kellhus to not survive the Holy war, or if did, he expected Kellhus to know about the Consult and thus help him in his quest. However, while meeting Kellhus, he did not at all account for the possibility that Kellhus would try to kill him.

[Happy Ent]

Moënghus has thought this through for a long time.

He has learned that humanity is doomed because the Consult wants to kill everybody. No matter how you slice and dice it, this is bad news from the Dunyain mission and for Moënghus himself.

(Or so he thinks, because he assumes that the Consult is mistaken. In reality, the Consult and Dunyain goals are pretty well aligned, but Moe doesn’t know that because he’s a secularist.)

It becomes clear to him that he cannot solve this alone, because he is too weak. (In particular, he’s blind which makes him a bad general as well as a slow judge of character compared to even Maithanet. He also chose the wrong kind of magic, and isn’t particularly good at it.)

Plan 2 is to use the fruit of his loins. We know that only Maithanet was a half-way acceptable child, and even he would probably not be strong enough to unite the three seas. However, it doesn’t hurt to try. So they make Maithanet the spiritual leader of Inrithism and keep Moe as the second-in-command of Fanimry. Make the armies fight. Depending on the outcome, make one faction bow to the other. It’s not perfect, but, as the good Bayesian that Moe is, it’s the best he can do. There’s even a nice flourish of planning in advance that the Nansur betray the Holy War outside of Shimeh, which would leave most of the Inrithi in a situation where they would feel betrayed by the Empire and join whatever Maithanet could build up.

Of course, it would be even better if Moe had access to a Dunyain-born and -bred collaborator. Hence he asks for his son. Should Kellhus manage to make it to the Three Seas, it’s plausible that he can unite the three seas. In particular, he might avoid some of Moe’s mistakes. (Moe can to some extent control at least the “let me join the Chishaurim”-path, should Kellhus actually decide to go that way.)

I think it makes sense. What else should he do to maximise probability?

The only think that Moe doesn’t foresee is that Kellhus is actually the Messiah, instead of just pretending to.

[Pain]

This still does not explain why did Moe leave the final outcome of the Holy war to chance? Why not support one faction and do everything in your power to make that faction victorious? (being Dunyain, Moe could have done a lot of damage to either side)

If Moenghus is thinking beyond the Holy war and its outcome and is seriously worried about the future war against the Consult, then it would make sense for him to inform all the Dunyain about the threat of the Consult, since all resources that are available should be utilized. Instead, only Kellhus is informed, and the other Dunyain are still in the dark and under serious danger from the Consult.

[Madness]

The narrative itself asserts through Kellhus that Moenghus couldn't see past the Circumfixion (I'm of the opinion that this isn't true, that Moenghus knew the unfolding at least until the coronation of Kellhus as Aspect-Emperor. Especially as Maithanet as Shriah has little actual power to confer a dead legal title on Kellhus that awards him actual control of say, Kian and Nansur, which are the only two realms that Kellhus has undisputed rule at the end of TTT).

From SA:

In The World Conspires thread we were discussing the coincidences, a little, that led Kellhus to Skiotha's mound. That aside.

"I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'" p.579, TWP

"Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ... This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me..." p.338, TTT LE

"How," his father finally said, "could you know this?"

"Because I know why you were compelled to summon me."

Scrutiny. Calculation.

"So you have grasped it."

"Yes ... the Thousandfold Thought." p. 340, TTT LE

Moenghus lied to Kellhus in TTT and Kellhus seems deceived by this.

"His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it." p.374, TTT LE

Except it seems the Conditioned Ground was Moenghus' that day. In TWP, he explicitly lets his son know that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought but then, in the conversation in TTT, he does not mention it until Kellhus does, even though he knows Kellhus has indeed grasped the Thought.

Then there is the snake issue. Why would Moenghus not have his snakes, if not due to premeditation?

[unJon]

It came from Akka. The metaphor with the parchment and the water droplets.

D'oh.