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Happy Ent

Bakker XXI: Attack of the Maximum Fun-Fun Ultra Super Happy People

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That certainly could be an author's mistake, but I can see a plausible alternative.




Maithanet, while not being a sorcerer, was certainly aware that sorcery existed and would have had plenty of experience seeing the few which Moe probably taught him to do.



Kellhus was just coming from an isolated society where sorcery was thought not to exist.



ETA: Castel beat me to it.


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Hi, and welcome to this board.

We know (via Bakker directly, out-of-books) that this Nonman is none other than Cet' ingira, or Mekertrig himself. He’s not only “with the Consult now,” he founded it. He’s the boss (together with the human sorcerer Shaeönanra, and the Inchoroi brothers Aurax and Aurang.)

He let him go because Kellhus ran very fast. That’s the best explanation we have. (It’s also important for the plot.)

Oh, thanks then.

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Well, thanks everyone for ruining what I thought was the best prologue ever written.



It could be deliberate, it could be Bakker's mistake or it could be yours dunno :dunno:


I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but I read some chapters while listening to the audiobook and often the words would be different between the two formats. For example one would say "it's" and the other "his", or "his" instead of "her", and other words with very close meanings that I don't recall now. Sometimes the narrator would stop and say "I don't think this is right so I'll offer a correction".


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Ever since reading WLW I've assumed that Mek let Kellhus go because he was "allowing for the prophecies, the true and the false", or however Aurang puts it when he's talking to Soma-Spy. If it's important to the plot, then Mek just being crazy and wanting to remember him doesn't make much sense.



Though I've also wondered what the hell one of the Grandmasters of the Consult was doing just wondering around the North with some Sranc. Obviously there's more to that whole meeting than we're being told, since Bakker apparently didn't even want us to know it was Mek, correct (didn't he reveal it accidentally or something?).


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Though I've also wondered what the hell one of the Grandmasters of the Consult was doing just wondering around the North with some Sranc. Obviously there's more to that whole meeting than we're being told, since Bakker apparently didn't even want us to know it was Mek, correct (didn't he reveal it accidentally or something?).

What I was thinking while reading that scene is what the hell is that nonman sorcerer thinking getting into a fist sword fight with someone that he could easily kill with sorcery? Had it not occurred to him that some people carry choraes? And now I find out that he's one of the leaders of the consult...wtf was he doing?

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What I was thinking while reading that scene is what the hell is that nonman sorcerer thinking getting into a fist sword fight with someone that he could easily kill with sorcery? Had it not occurred to him that some people carry choraes? And now I find out that he's one of the leaders of the consult...wtf was he doing?

IF Kellhus had Chorae he would feel it, and that's what the Sranc -that Kellhus surprisingly killed- was for. Of course, this raises the question of what the point of going out and supervising Sranc as they kill people is.

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IF Kellhus had Chorae he would feel it, and that's what the Sranc -that Kellhus surprisingly killed- was for.

Huh? Could you clarify I have no idea what you're saying here.

Do sorcerers feel Chorae even if they can't see it? If so, why didn't Achamnian feel the Chorae of Geshruni before he took it out? And how are the Sranc going to tell Mek whether Kellhus has a Chorae or not?

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Mek is not in his right mind. But he's likely sane enough to realize that he needs to color his day to day experiences with trauma to create new memories.



This is why he travels with Sranc, and possibly also why he doesn't kill Kellhus with a quick spell -> he wants to prolong the suffering of the victims he finds.


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Huh? Could you clarify I have no idea what you're saying here.

Do sorcerers feel Chorae even if they can't see it? If so, why didn't Achamnian feel the Chorae of Geshruni before he took it out? And how are the Sranc going to tell Mek whether Kellhus has a Chorae or not?

Sorcerers feel Chorae within a certain range, not sure how far. The Sranc were just going to kill or incapacitate Kellhus and whoever they ran into so it wasn't likely they'd get close enough to use one anyway,not that many people up north have one.

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The bottom line there, Hello World Alt, is that Mek would certainly feel a chorae, so he could assume with 100% certainty at that proximity that Kellhus doesn't have one. And he's an Old Name who does not know that such a thing as a Dunyain exists (as far as we know), so no serious threat to approach and inspect this figure that had killed his elju-sranc.


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The bottom line there, Hello World Alt, is that Mek would certainly feel a chorae, so he could assume with 100% certainty at that proximity that Kellhus doesn't have one.

Ok, but why didn't Achamian sense that Geshrunni had a Chorae when they were so close that Geshrunni was actually holding Achamian's wrist? And if he did sense it, why was he about to say a sorcerous word until Geshrunni pulled the Chorae out from underneath his vest? Does it only work if the person is holding it as opposed to having it around their neck for example?

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Ok, but why didn't Achamian sense that Geshrunni had a Chorae when they were so close that Geshrunni was actually holding Achamian's wrist? And if he did sense it, why was he about to say a sorcerous word until Geshrunni pulled the Chorae out from underneath his vest? Does it only work if the person is holding it as opposed to having it around their neck for example?

Another thing that seems like it could be an author's error, but I'd have to reread the scene. It's possible that what changed wasn't Akka's awareness of the chorae but that he was all of the sudden being threatened by it? Kind of like the difference of the guy across the table from you having a gun in a holster versus cocked and pointed at you? But if the scene makes it sound like Akka had no clue until it was revealed, then that's an interesting catch.

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Uh, upon rereading it, it does actually say that he sensed it from their first encounter. So it could be what you said about being threatened by it.



But I still don't get why he was going to use sorcery against him if he knew he had a Chorae.


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There are several parts in the first few chapters where all of Bakker’s ideas haven’t yet taken form.

For instance, a skin spy removes Geshrunni’s face. At that time, RSB still thought skin spies needed original faces to impersonate somebody.

Kellhus ought to notice Mek’s Mark, but doesn’t. This is later retconned, I can’t remember where, when Kellhus recalls the “strange torsion” around Mek.

Chorae can be felt a long way off, in Judging Eye they are felt across floors of a tunnel system.

Clearly Kellhus should have absolutely no chance against Mekertrig. And the No-God is an invention of the Consult, not the Inchoroi, so Mekertrig never fought against Him. (He did fight the Inchoroi.)

All of these are mistakes.

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TDTCB, Prlg, p32, 2004 Canadian paperback:

And then came the word, the word that, on hearing, wrenched the intellect somehow.

A furious incandescene. Like a petal blown from a palm, Kellhus was thrown backward. He rolled through the snow and, stunned, struggled to his feet. He watched numbly as the Nonman was drawn upright as though by a wire. Pale watery light formed a sphere around him. The ice rain sputtered and hissed against it. Behind him rose the great tree.

Sorcery? But how could it be?

Ch. 17, p565:

How was this possible? Sorcery? If so, it possessed nothing of the strange torsion he'd experienced with the Nonman he'd battled so long ago. Sorcery, Kellhus had realized, was inexplicably grotesque - like the scribblings of a child across a work of art - though he did not know why. All he knew was that he could distinguish the sorcery from the world and sorcerers from common men. This was among the many mysteries that had motivated his study of Drusas Achamian.

Ch. 1, p40:

The man withdrew his hand and produced the Chorae. He winked, then with terrifying abruptness, snapped the golden chain holding it about his neck. Achamian had sensed it from their first encounter, had actually used its unnerving murmur to identify Geshrunni's vocation. Now Geshrunni would use it to identify him.

There are several parts in the first few chapters where all of Bakker’s ideas haven’t yet taken form.

For instance, a skin spy removes Geshrunni’s face. At that time, RSB still thought skin spies needed original faces to impersonate somebody.

...

Clearly Kellhus should have absolutely no chance against Mekertrig. And the No-God is an invention of the Consult, not the Inchoroi, so Mekertrig never fought against Him. (He did fight the Inchoroi.)

All of these are mistakes.

Got nothing for these two. However, we don't know that the No-God's is an Inchoroi conception or not, whether it relies on sorcery/tekne or just tekne, or even if the No-God wasn't part of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, really. After all, Moenghus the Elder says "Void has come twice" to Earwa.

The Black Heavens might have risen before...

After all, the Nonmen warned Seswatha about the possibility of the No-God before its advent during the First Apocalypse and we know they jealously hoarded information about their wars with the Inchoroi from men, even when they were Siqu to humankind...

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The fight scene between Kellhus, the Sranc, and then Mekeritig is one of my favorites in any novel ever. It seems like it'd be an awesome video game level. Mekeritig just walks in like a level boss, with a cool intro and shit.



A First Apocalypse game would be so cool too. Although, I'm imagining a JRPG, not an action game. You could even get a standard RPG trio going, Nau-Cayuti, Seswatha, and that concubine of his that gets stolen would be the healer... because whatever.


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After all, the Nonmen warned Seswatha about the possibility of the No-God before its advent during the First Apocalypse and we know they jealously hoarded information about their wars with the Inchoroi from men, even when they were Siqu to humankind...

Something I've wondered about is why Seswatha went into Golgoterath to steal the Heron Spear before the No-God was even summoned.

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The impossible words were there, poised in Achamian’s thought, words that could blind eyes and blister flesh. He leaves me no choice. There would be an uproar. Men would bellow, clutch their swords, but they would do nothing but scramble from his path. More than any people in the Three Seas, the Ainoni feared sorcery.

No choice.

But Geshrunni had already reached beneath his embroidered vest. His fist bunched beneath the fabric. He grimaced like a grinning jackal.

Too late . . .


“You look,” Geshrunni said with menacing ease, “like you have something to say.” The man withdrew his hand and produced the Chorae.







This passage is implying that as long as Geshrunni kept the Chorae underneath his clothes Achamian's sorcery would have worked against him.


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This passage is implying that as long as Geshrunni kept the Chorae underneath his clothes Achamian's sorcery would have worked against him.

Or Akka could drop a lamp on him or something. Or scare him enough to escape.

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When Moenghus says that Void has already come twice and is about to come again, I think the previous two are clearly the Ark falling from the Void in the first place as the first and the rise of the No-God being the second.



So the Inchies...the people that brought the IF and conceived of the Consult were like Void coming of a thing coming from the Void.

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